freedom

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Re: freedom

jlm@justinfront.net
Simon

Forks -1

As they are likely to reduce my freedom to use haXe for real projects  
and undermine viability of haXe, I think you have made your point and  
you do not really have anything new to add so maybe it's time we all  
moved on as it just seems to be getting more negative and I don't see  
any new ideas regarding these concepts being added.  If the ideas are  
good I am sure the community will come back to them.  Simon rather  
than putting time into a fork I urge you to make haXe more accessible  
to new users.


Cheers

;j

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Re: freedom

Simon Asselbergs
In reply to this post by clemos
Hi Clément,

Thanks for your kind reply. You have made a point. I have to rethink then how to come with something better.

Cordially, Simon

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Re: freedom

Simon Asselbergs
In reply to this post by jlm@justinfront.net
Simon rather than putting time into a fork I urge you to make haXe more accessible to new users.
Thanks for you constructive idea. Good idea! I will do! I am trying to do just that also for Stax, which I think is very nice lib!

Thanks, Simon

--
haXe - an open source web programming language
http://haxe.org
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Re: freedom

Nathan
Simon Asselbergs wrote:
>> Simon rather than putting time into a fork I urge you to make haXe more
>> accessible to new users.
>>
> Thanks for you constructive idea. Good idea! I will do! I am trying to do
> just that also for Stax, which I think is very nice lib!

to quickly add, forking haxe "quietly" just to experiment then give back
patches + give a test base for people considering those patches is
perfectly fine, if not a good idea! Just forking haxe and creating a new
community isn't ideal, but again there's nothing morally wrong with it
and we've had some great languages come from people doing this - it is
the open source way often - however if you can benefit and compliment
the existing community (and become a valuable member in the process)
then this is probably advisable :)

Best,

Nathan

--
haXe - an open source web programming language
http://haxe.org
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Re: freedom

David Bergman
I hate this community; in most other communities, this thing would have gone of for weeks or longer, and would have led to poorly hidden quasi-physical threats ;-)

/David

On Oct 1, 2010, at 12:51 PM, Nathan wrote:

> Simon Asselbergs wrote:
>>> Simon rather than putting time into a fork I urge you to make haXe more
>>> accessible to new users.
>>>
>> Thanks for you constructive idea. Good idea! I will do! I am trying to do
>> just that also for Stax, which I think is very nice lib!
>
> to quickly add, forking haxe "quietly" just to experiment then give back patches + give a test base for people considering those patches is perfectly fine, if not a good idea! Just forking haxe and creating a new community isn't ideal, but again there's nothing morally wrong with it and we've had some great languages come from people doing this - it is the open source way often - however if you can benefit and compliment the existing community (and become a valuable member in the process) then this is probably advisable :)
>
> Best,
>
> Nathan
>
> --
> haXe - an open source web programming language
> http://haxe.org


--
haXe - an open source web programming language
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Re: freedom

Lee Sylvester
  I think you'll be wanting the Ruby list, then ;-)

Lee




On 01/10/2010 18:34, David Bergman wrote:

> I hate this community; in most other communities, this thing would have gone of for weeks or longer, and would have led to poorly hidden quasi-physical threats ;-)
>
> /David
>
> On Oct 1, 2010, at 12:51 PM, Nathan wrote:
>
>> Simon Asselbergs wrote:
>>>> Simon rather than putting time into a fork I urge you to make haXe more
>>>> accessible to new users.
>>>>
>>> Thanks for you constructive idea. Good idea! I will do! I am trying to do
>>> just that also for Stax, which I think is very nice lib!
>> to quickly add, forking haxe "quietly" just to experiment then give back patches + give a test base for people considering those patches is perfectly fine, if not a good idea! Just forking haxe and creating a new community isn't ideal, but again there's nothing morally wrong with it and we've had some great languages come from people doing this - it is the open source way often - however if you can benefit and compliment the existing community (and become a valuable member in the process) then this is probably advisable :)
>>
>> Best,
>>
>> Nathan
>>
>> --
>> haXe - an open source web programming language
>> http://haxe.org
>


--
haXe - an open source web programming language
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Re: freedom

Simon Asselbergs
In reply to this post by David Bergman
David, I love haxe and even more its very capable community including its positivism, though this thread might give unintended the idea of the opposite. Simon


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Re: freedom

Nicolas Cannasse
In reply to this post by Simon Asselbergs
Le 01/10/2010 15:40, Simon Asselbergs a écrit :
> You are afraid of what will happen if haxe users would have the ability
> to change the syntax. [...]

I guess you got pretty appropriate answers from other people so I'll not
add more to that.

However, I would like to clear up something : macros have not been
somehow "limited" to prevent users from redefining syntax.

Most languages have their own feature that they called "macros". Macros
are usually constructs that operate at a higher level than simple code.

For instance C/C++ macros are lexer-level macros, which will simply
replace a given macro call by a list of tokens which will go through the
parser. They are actually just smart shortcuts. But this lead to
difficulties in understanding what actually get generated/compiled, as
well as many hard-to-track syntax errors (and I'm not talking about
debugging). Everybody who have been using lexer-level macros will surely
understand the pro and cons of such level macros.

Parser-level macros are implemented in some languages (such as Camlp4 in
OCaml) but are IMHO very hard to use since you need to declare your own
parser and semantics, which themselves require specific additional syntax.

So for haXe macros I choose to have "expression-level" macros, which
enable the macros to manipulate already-parsed expressions and generate
other expressions as well. This macro system requires no additional
syntax at all, and enable to actually run quite complex code at
compilation-time, which is very important for a lot of code-generation
technics. It is at the same time much more powerful than lexer macros
and much more easy than parser macros.

So it's not about limiting the macros, it's more about defining which
kind of macros we want for haXe, and the choice is already made, with
very positive feedback so far.

BTW for the notice as far as I know both C# and Java doesn't have any
kind of macros.

Nicolas

--
haXe - an open source web programming language
http://haxe.org
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Re: freedom

Simon Asselbergs
Nicolas,

So are you open if someone makes a very decent implementation of a parser-level macro's?

Simon


On Sat, Oct 2, 2010 at 2:37 PM, Nicolas Cannasse <[hidden email]> wrote:
Le 01/10/2010 15:40, Simon Asselbergs a écrit :
You are afraid of what will happen if haxe users would have the ability
to change the syntax. [...]

I guess you got pretty appropriate answers from other people so I'll not add more to that.

However, I would like to clear up something : macros have not been somehow "limited" to prevent users from redefining syntax.

Most languages have their own feature that they called "macros". Macros are usually constructs that operate at a higher level than simple code.

For instance C/C++ macros are lexer-level macros, which will simply replace a given macro call by a list of tokens which will go through the parser. They are actually just smart shortcuts. But this lead to difficulties in understanding what actually get generated/compiled, as well as many hard-to-track syntax errors (and I'm not talking about debugging). Everybody who have been using lexer-level macros will surely understand the pro and cons of such level macros.

Parser-level macros are implemented in some languages (such as Camlp4 in OCaml) but are IMHO very hard to use since you need to declare your own parser and semantics, which themselves require specific additional syntax.

So for haXe macros I choose to have "expression-level" macros, which enable the macros to manipulate already-parsed expressions and generate other expressions as well. This macro system requires no additional syntax at all, and enable to actually run quite complex code at compilation-time, which is very important for a lot of code-generation technics. It is at the same time much more powerful than lexer macros and much more easy than parser macros.

So it's not about limiting the macros, it's more about defining which kind of macros we want for haXe, and the choice is already made, with very positive feedback so far.

BTW for the notice as far as I know both C# and Java doesn't have any kind of macros.

Nicolas


--
haXe - an open source web programming language
http://haxe.org


--
haXe - an open source web programming language
http://haxe.org
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Re: freedom

Andy Li
BTW, not answering your question, but there are caxe and HaXe M4 Extension (I don't know if they are parser-level or what).

cheers,
Andy

On Sat, Oct 2, 2010 at 8:49 PM, Simon Asselbergs <[hidden email]> wrote:
Nicolas,

So are you open if someone makes a very decent implementation of a parser-level macro's?

Simon



On Sat, Oct 2, 2010 at 2:37 PM, Nicolas Cannasse <[hidden email]> wrote:
Le 01/10/2010 15:40, Simon Asselbergs a écrit :
You are afraid of what will happen if haxe users would have the ability
to change the syntax. [...]

I guess you got pretty appropriate answers from other people so I'll not add more to that.

However, I would like to clear up something : macros have not been somehow "limited" to prevent users from redefining syntax.

Most languages have their own feature that they called "macros". Macros are usually constructs that operate at a higher level than simple code.

For instance C/C++ macros are lexer-level macros, which will simply replace a given macro call by a list of tokens which will go through the parser. They are actually just smart shortcuts. But this lead to difficulties in understanding what actually get generated/compiled, as well as many hard-to-track syntax errors (and I'm not talking about debugging). Everybody who have been using lexer-level macros will surely understand the pro and cons of such level macros.

Parser-level macros are implemented in some languages (such as Camlp4 in OCaml) but are IMHO very hard to use since you need to declare your own parser and semantics, which themselves require specific additional syntax.

So for haXe macros I choose to have "expression-level" macros, which enable the macros to manipulate already-parsed expressions and generate other expressions as well. This macro system requires no additional syntax at all, and enable to actually run quite complex code at compilation-time, which is very important for a lot of code-generation technics. It is at the same time much more powerful than lexer macros and much more easy than parser macros.

So it's not about limiting the macros, it's more about defining which kind of macros we want for haXe, and the choice is already made, with very positive feedback so far.

BTW for the notice as far as I know both C# and Java doesn't have any kind of macros.

Nicolas


--
haXe - an open source web programming language
http://haxe.org


--
haXe - an open source web programming language
http://haxe.org


--
haXe - an open source web programming language
http://haxe.org
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Re: freedom

Martijn Loots
In reply to this post by Simon Asselbergs
Simon, why do you ask ? Go ahead and code at will. No one will
hold you back. The lengthy thread should have learned you that
at least...

-Martijn

On Sat, 2 Oct 2010, Simon Asselbergs wrote:

> Nicolas,
>
> So are you open if someone makes a very decent implementation of a
> parser-level macro's?
>
> Simon
>
>
> On Sat, Oct 2, 2010 at 2:37 PM, Nicolas Cannasse
> <[hidden email]>wrote:
>
>> Le 01/10/2010 15:40, Simon Asselbergs a écrit :
>>
>>> You are afraid of what will happen if haxe users would have the ability
>>> to change the syntax. [...]
>>>
>>
>> I guess you got pretty appropriate answers from other people so I'll not
>> add more to that.
>>
>> However, I would like to clear up something : macros have not been somehow
>> "limited" to prevent users from redefining syntax.
>>
>> Most languages have their own feature that they called "macros". Macros are
>> usually constructs that operate at a higher level than simple code.
>>
>> For instance C/C++ macros are lexer-level macros, which will simply replace
>> a given macro call by a list of tokens which will go through the parser.
>> They are actually just smart shortcuts. But this lead to difficulties in
>> understanding what actually get generated/compiled, as well as many
>> hard-to-track syntax errors (and I'm not talking about debugging). Everybody
>> who have been using lexer-level macros will surely understand the pro and
>> cons of such level macros.
>>
>> Parser-level macros are implemented in some languages (such as Camlp4 in
>> OCaml) but are IMHO very hard to use since you need to declare your own
>> parser and semantics, which themselves require specific additional syntax.
>>
>> So for haXe macros I choose to have "expression-level" macros, which enable
>> the macros to manipulate already-parsed expressions and generate other
>> expressions as well. This macro system requires no additional syntax at all,
>> and enable to actually run quite complex code at compilation-time, which is
>> very important for a lot of code-generation technics. It is at the same time
>> much more powerful than lexer macros and much more easy than parser macros.
>>
>> So it's not about limiting the macros, it's more about defining which kind
>> of macros we want for haXe, and the choice is already made, with very
>> positive feedback so far.
>>
>> BTW for the notice as far as I know both C# and Java doesn't have any kind
>> of macros.
>>
>> Nicolas
>>
>>
>> --
>> haXe - an open source web programming language
>> http://haxe.org
>>
>
--
-Martijn    @..@    ( Martijn Loots       -  Hengelo  [NL] )
-          (`--')   ( martijn<@>cosix.com -  www.cosix.com )
-         ( >__< )  ----------------------------------------
-         ^^^  ^^^  (   Netwerken, Security, Open Source   )
--
haXe - an open source web programming language
http://haxe.org
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Re: freedom

Simon Asselbergs
Thread is already dead guys.... If u want to keep this zombie thread alive, eat your heart out. have phun!

Greetings

--
haXe - an open source web programming language
http://haxe.org
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Re: freedom

Martijn Loots
+1

Please vote democratically before declaring dead first please... ;-)

On Sat, 2 Oct 2010, Simon Asselbergs wrote:

> Thread is already dead guys.... If u want to keep this zombie thread alive,
> eat your heart out. have phun!
>
> Greetings
>

--
-Martijn    @..@    ( Martijn Loots       -  Hengelo  [NL] )
-          (`--')   ( martijn<@>cosix.com -  www.cosix.com )
-         ( >__< )  ----------------------------------------
-         ^^^  ^^^  (   Netwerken, Security, Open Source   )

--
haXe - an open source web programming language
http://haxe.org
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Re: freedom

Simon Asselbergs
lol

On Sat, Oct 2, 2010 at 4:48 PM, Martijn Loots <[hidden email]> wrote:
+1

Please vote democratically before declaring dead first please... ;-)


On Sat, 2 Oct 2010, Simon Asselbergs wrote:

Thread is already dead guys.... If u want to keep this zombie thread alive,
eat your heart out. have phun!

Greetings


--
-Martijn    @..@    ( Martijn Loots       -  Hengelo  [NL] )
-          (`--')   ( martijn<@>cosix.com -  www.cosix.com )
-         ( >__< )  ----------------------------------------
-         ^^^  ^^^  (   Netwerken, Security, Open Source   )

--
haXe - an open source web programming language
http://haxe.org


--
haXe - an open source web programming language
http://haxe.org
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Re: freedom

Tony Polinelli
can someone plase explain this all to me again.. i am very interested


On Sat, Oct 2, 2010 at 7:50 AM, Simon Asselbergs <[hidden email]> wrote:
lol


On Sat, Oct 2, 2010 at 4:48 PM, Martijn Loots <[hidden email]> wrote:
+1

Please vote democratically before declaring dead first please... ;-)


On Sat, 2 Oct 2010, Simon Asselbergs wrote:

Thread is already dead guys.... If u want to keep this zombie thread alive,
eat your heart out. have phun!

Greetings


--
-Martijn    @..@    ( Martijn Loots       -  Hengelo  [NL] )
-          (`--')   ( martijn<@>cosix.com -  www.cosix.com )
-         ( >__< )  ----------------------------------------
-         ^^^  ^^^  (   Netwerken, Security, Open Source   )

--
haXe - an open source web programming language
http://haxe.org


--
haXe - an open source web programming language
http://haxe.org



--
Tony Polinelli
http://touchmypixel.com

--
haXe - an open source web programming language
http://haxe.org
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Re: freedom

Lee Sylvester
I'm detecting some Aussie sarcasm... How far it travels.

Lee




On 5 Oct 2010, at 06:26, Tony Polinelli <[hidden email]> wrote:

can someone plase explain this all to me again.. i am very interested


On Sat, Oct 2, 2010 at 7:50 AM, Simon Asselbergs <[hidden email]> wrote:
lol


On Sat, Oct 2, 2010 at 4:48 PM, Martijn Loots <[hidden email]> wrote:
+1

Please vote democratically before declaring dead first please... ;-)


On Sat, 2 Oct 2010, Simon Asselbergs wrote:

Thread is already dead guys.... If u want to keep this zombie thread alive,
eat your heart out. have phun!

Greetings


--
-Martijn    @..@    ( Martijn Loots       -  Hengelo  [NL] )
-          (`--')   ( martijn<@>cosix.com -  www.cosix.com )
-         ( >__< )  ----------------------------------------
-         ^^^  ^^^  (   Netwerken, Security, Open Source   )

--
haXe - an open source web programming language
http://haxe.org


--
haXe - an open source web programming language
http://haxe.org



--
Tony Polinelli
http://touchmypixel.com
--
haXe - an open source web programming language
http://haxe.org

--
haXe - an open source web programming language
http://haxe.org
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Re: freedom

Tony Polinelli
no takers!? aawww ;P

On Tue, Oct 5, 2010 at 12:12 AM, Lee McColl Sylvester <[hidden email]> wrote:
I'm detecting some Aussie sarcasm... How far it travels.

Lee




On 5 Oct 2010, at 06:26, Tony Polinelli <[hidden email]> wrote:

can someone plase explain this all to me again.. i am very interested


On Sat, Oct 2, 2010 at 7:50 AM, Simon Asselbergs <[hidden email][hidden email]> wrote:
lol


On Sat, Oct 2, 2010 at 4:48 PM, Martijn Loots <[hidden email][hidden email]> wrote:
+1

Please vote democratically before declaring dead first please... ;-)


On Sat, 2 Oct 2010, Simon Asselbergs wrote:

Thread is already dead guys.... If u want to keep this zombie thread alive,
eat your heart out. have phun!

Greetings


--
-Martijn    @..@    ( Martijn Loots       -  Hengelo  [NL] )
-          (`--')   ( martijn<@>cosix.com -  www.cosix.com )
-         ( >__< )  ----------------------------------------
-         ^^^  ^^^  (   Netwerken, Security, Open Source   )

--
haXe - an open source web programming language
http://haxe.org


--
haXe - an open source web programming language
http://haxe.org



--
Tony Polinelli
http://touchmypixel.com
--
haXe - an open source web programming language
http://haxe.org

--
haXe - an open source web programming language
http://haxe.org



--
Tony Polinelli
http://touchmypixel.com

--
haXe - an open source web programming language
http://haxe.org
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Re: freedom

jlm@justinfront.net
Tony,

I think the thread got renamed! "This time making you all happy all again" 

so we are all happy now :)

;J 

On 5 Oct 2010, at 09:31, Tony Polinelli wrote:

no takers!? aawww ;P

On Tue, Oct 5, 2010 at 12:12 AM, Lee McColl Sylvester <[hidden email]> wrote:
I'm detecting some Aussie sarcasm... How far it travels.

Lee




On 5 Oct 2010, at 06:26, Tony Polinelli <[hidden email]> wrote:

can someone plase explain this all to me again.. i am very interested


On Sat, Oct 2, 2010 at 7:50 AM, Simon Asselbergs <[hidden email][hidden email]> wrote:
lol


On Sat, Oct 2, 2010 at 4:48 PM, Martijn Loots <[hidden email][hidden email]> wrote:
+1

Please vote democratically before declaring dead first please... ;-)


On Sat, 2 Oct 2010, Simon Asselbergs wrote:

Thread is already dead guys.... If u want to keep this zombie thread alive,
eat your heart out. have phun!

Greetings


--
-Martijn    @..@    ( Martijn Loots       -  Hengelo  [NL] )
-          (`--')   ( martijn<@>cosix.com -  www.cosix.com )
-         ( >__< )  ----------------------------------------
-         ^^^  ^^^  (   Netwerken, Security, Open Source   )

--
haXe - an open source web programming language
http://haxe.org


--
haXe - an open source web programming language
http://haxe.org



--
Tony Polinelli
http://touchmypixel.com
--
haXe - an open source web programming language
http://haxe.org

--
haXe - an open source web programming language
http://haxe.org



--
Tony Polinelli
http://touchmypixel.com
--
haXe - an open source web programming language
http://haxe.org


--
haXe - an open source web programming language
http://haxe.org
12