fool question : where is HTML ?

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fool question : where is HTML ?

Michel Oster

hi list,

haXe is suitable for my "desktop" needs;
for example, I could made :

    - a little "MidiOut.ndll" ( without knowing C language ! )
    - a translation of "FPDF" to build PDF files ( on 'haxelib' )
    - a tool to build screens in swhx/flash9
    - some databases migration from my old Delphi/BDE to neko/sqlite
    - and so on ...

of course, that all is not finished but it works fine on Win XP.
slowly, my attention goes towards the web-world.

like often, I re-opened this morning the "haXe API Documentation"
( index.html ) and it was good news to find targets like :

    - js
    - php
    - xml

but was a bit surprised to not find 'HTML'.
the reason of my surprise is probably the book I am reading

as hobby-programmer, new books ( 30 or 40 euro ) are inaccessible,
except "haXe & neko", so I was very happy to find a good one ( yeah! 3
euro ) :

    - title : "Web client-serveur"
    - subtitle : "le triomphe du client léger" ( the light client triumph )
    - editor : Eyrolles
    - published in year 1998 ( 12 years old ... like a good whisky )

his author, Alain Lefebvre, having a long experience,
describes the existing web technologies on the client side :

unusable ( slow and too much dependencies ) :
    - Java + Corba
    - ActiveX + DCOM
    - ( what would he say today about 'Flash' ? )

the only way : the 'standard' web
    - HTML + HTTP + CGI ( = the light client triumph )
    - DHTML + JS + CSS

Alain Lefebvre convinced me, and if I well understand,
Nicolas & friends made a good choice :
    - HTTP + CGI = 'haXe-Remoting' + light neko

but what about or where is HTML in haXe ?
could not 'standard' haXe do an entrance for beginners
to facilitate HTML programming, or is it a newbee lack of recognition ?

regards,

Michel



--
haXe - an open source web programming language
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Re: fool question : where is HTML ?

Franco Ponticelli

is it a newbee lack of recognition ?

I guess that is true ;)
HTML files are merely text files with a special syntax. What you do is using PHP/Neko/... to produce that pages.
How? The easiest why is probably using templates (look for Templo2) but it is not the only one; you can try string concatenation, an XML DOM converte to string or a mix.
Of course you don't want to have one application for every page you intend to produce so you will need a front controller of sort and I encourage you to have a look at haxigniter for that.
I hope I have not misunderstood your needs.

Franco.

--
haXe - an open source web programming language
http://haxe.org
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Re: fool question : where is HTML ?

John Plsek
I always LMAO at the phrase "HTML Programming", and mercilessly mock those who call themselves HTML programmers ;)

On 5 May 2010 02:36, Franco Ponticelli <[hidden email]> wrote:

is it a newbee lack of recognition ?

I guess that is true ;)
HTML files are merely text files with a special syntax. What you do is using PHP/Neko/... to produce that pages.
How? The easiest why is probably using templates (look for Templo2) but it is not the only one; you can try string concatenation, an XML DOM converte to string or a mix.
Of course you don't want to have one application for every page you intend to produce so you will need a front controller of sort and I encourage you to have a look at haxigniter for that.
I hope I have not misunderstood your needs.

Franco.

--
haXe - an open source web programming language
http://haxe.org



--
Coming soon - BravoStudio, a complete internet radio/tv solution

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haXe - an open source web programming language
http://haxe.org
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Re: fool question : where is HTML ?

gershon
In reply to this post by Franco Ponticelli
Consider this, is there a difference between an html page with some text, images and even forms, to the same (visually) page only rendered in flash?
My answer would be no. HTML is a textual format rendered by your browser, Flash (swf) is a binary format rendered by your browser's plugin.

Just like the programmer\designer prepares a flash page beforehand, so is the html page produced by either a designer or a programmer...
Its ascii nature makes "compiling" an html page an easier task for the programmer. A simple "Template Engine" can just take some existing html and add\transform it...
Like Franco said, you can use Templo for neko\php, or write your own regex-based, PHP has Smarty and some others...

A good starting point can be a simple neko app to load an html file, do some find&replace (regex is probably better than string manipulation, but it would do too) and print the result.

I'm currently using php and XML DOM too, the template is parsed, the dom gets manipulated and finally "printed", benefit here is that the output is strictly valid XHTML, and that i have no html "littering" my PHP.

"Traditional" PHP usually looks like:
<body>
<div>
<?PHP echo 'Hello World'; ?>
</div>
</body>

While my XML DOM usage looks like:
$page = new Page();
$page->appendElement('body')->appendElement('div')->addText('Hello World');
$page->display();

Shorter, neater, well-formed and easier to debug.
And thats just PHP! There are ofcourse many other neat things you can later do on the client-side, I for instance inject some jQuery into the dom to have stuff like accessibility, animation, validation...

On Tue, May 4, 2010 at 7:36 PM, Franco Ponticelli <[hidden email]> wrote:

is it a newbee lack of recognition ?

I guess that is true ;)
HTML files are merely text files with a special syntax. What you do is using PHP/Neko/... to produce that pages.
How? The easiest why is probably using templates (look for Templo2) but it is not the only one; you can try string concatenation, an XML DOM converte to string or a mix.
Of course you don't want to have one application for every page you intend to produce so you will need a front controller of sort and I encourage you to have a look at haxigniter for that.
I hope I have not misunderstood your needs.

Franco.

--
haXe - an open source web programming language
http://haxe.org


--
haXe - an open source web programming language
http://haxe.org
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Re: fool question : where is HTML ?

Justin Donaldson
I like this article:
http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/doc/leastPower.html

It gives a nice, simple strategy for choosing how to implement things on the web... at least if you want others to use or extend the code.

Of course, creating an obscure, heavily engineered, fast performing web application probably gives you some good job security instead ;)

-Justin

On Tue, May 4, 2010 at 7:45 PM, gershon <[hidden email]> wrote:
Consider this, is there a difference between an html page with some text, images and even forms, to the same (visually) page only rendered in flash?
My answer would be no. HTML is a textual format rendered by your browser, Flash (swf) is a binary format rendered by your browser's plugin.

Just like the programmer\designer prepares a flash page beforehand, so is the html page produced by either a designer or a programmer...
Its ascii nature makes "compiling" an html page an easier task for the programmer. A simple "Template Engine" can just take some existing html and add\transform it...
Like Franco said, you can use Templo for neko\php, or write your own regex-based, PHP has Smarty and some others...

A good starting point can be a simple neko app to load an html file, do some find&replace (regex is probably better than string manipulation, but it would do too) and print the result.

I'm currently using php and XML DOM too, the template is parsed, the dom gets manipulated and finally "printed", benefit here is that the output is strictly valid XHTML, and that i have no html "littering" my PHP.

"Traditional" PHP usually looks like:
<body>
<div>
<?PHP echo 'Hello World'; ?>
</div>
</body>

While my XML DOM usage looks like:
$page = new Page();
$page->appendElement('body')->appendElement('div')->addText('Hello World');
$page->display();

Shorter, neater, well-formed and easier to debug.
And thats just PHP! There are ofcourse many other neat things you can later do on the client-side, I for instance inject some jQuery into the dom to have stuff like accessibility, animation, validation...

On Tue, May 4, 2010 at 7:36 PM, Franco Ponticelli <[hidden email]> wrote:

is it a newbee lack of recognition ?

I guess that is true ;)
HTML files are merely text files with a special syntax. What you do is using PHP/Neko/... to produce that pages.
How? The easiest why is probably using templates (look for Templo2) but it is not the only one; you can try string concatenation, an XML DOM converte to string or a mix.
Of course you don't want to have one application for every page you intend to produce so you will need a front controller of sort and I encourage you to have a look at haxigniter for that.
I hope I have not misunderstood your needs.

Franco.

--

haXe - an open source web programming language
http://haxe.org


--
haXe - an open source web programming language
http://haxe.org



--
Justin Donaldson
PhD Candidate, Informatics
Indiana University
http://www.scwn.net
aim: iujjd
twitter: jjdonald

--
haXe - an open source web programming language
http://haxe.org
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Re: fool question : where is HTML ?

Tarwin Stroh-Spijer
It is a little hard to work out how to make a "good" HTML application in haXe at the moment but there are libraries out there that can help you, and they're not too heavy on requirements either. There's a CodeIgnither clone (sorry, it is clone-ish right?) or our own Poko (a new version coming soon - http://code.google.com/p/poko/) to get you started.

Regards,


Tarwin Stroh-Spijer
_______________________

Touch My Pixel
http://www.touchmypixel.com/
phone: +61 3 8060 5321
_______________________


On Wed, May 5, 2010 at 11:28 AM, Justin Donaldson <[hidden email]> wrote:
I like this article:
http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/doc/leastPower.html

It gives a nice, simple strategy for choosing how to implement things on the web... at least if you want others to use or extend the code.

Of course, creating an obscure, heavily engineered, fast performing web application probably gives you some good job security instead ;)

-Justin


On Tue, May 4, 2010 at 7:45 PM, gershon <[hidden email]> wrote:
Consider this, is there a difference between an html page with some text, images and even forms, to the same (visually) page only rendered in flash?
My answer would be no. HTML is a textual format rendered by your browser, Flash (swf) is a binary format rendered by your browser's plugin.

Just like the programmer\designer prepares a flash page beforehand, so is the html page produced by either a designer or a programmer...
Its ascii nature makes "compiling" an html page an easier task for the programmer. A simple "Template Engine" can just take some existing html and add\transform it...
Like Franco said, you can use Templo for neko\php, or write your own regex-based, PHP has Smarty and some others...

A good starting point can be a simple neko app to load an html file, do some find&replace (regex is probably better than string manipulation, but it would do too) and print the result.

I'm currently using php and XML DOM too, the template is parsed, the dom gets manipulated and finally "printed", benefit here is that the output is strictly valid XHTML, and that i have no html "littering" my PHP.

"Traditional" PHP usually looks like:
<body>
<div>
<?PHP echo 'Hello World'; ?>
</div>
</body>

While my XML DOM usage looks like:
$page = new Page();
$page->appendElement('body')->appendElement('div')->addText('Hello World');
$page->display();

Shorter, neater, well-formed and easier to debug.
And thats just PHP! There are ofcourse many other neat things you can later do on the client-side, I for instance inject some jQuery into the dom to have stuff like accessibility, animation, validation...

On Tue, May 4, 2010 at 7:36 PM, Franco Ponticelli <[hidden email]> wrote:

is it a newbee lack of recognition ?

I guess that is true ;)
HTML files are merely text files with a special syntax. What you do is using PHP/Neko/... to produce that pages.
How? The easiest why is probably using templates (look for Templo2) but it is not the only one; you can try string concatenation, an XML DOM converte to string or a mix.
Of course you don't want to have one application for every page you intend to produce so you will need a front controller of sort and I encourage you to have a look at haxigniter for that.
I hope I have not misunderstood your needs.

Franco.

--

haXe - an open source web programming language
http://haxe.org


--
haXe - an open source web programming language
http://haxe.org



--
Justin Donaldson
PhD Candidate, Informatics
Indiana University
http://www.scwn.net
aim: iujjd
twitter: jjdonald

--
haXe - an open source web programming language
http://haxe.org


--
haXe - an open source web programming language
http://haxe.org
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Re: fool question : where is HTML ?

Andreas Söderlund
On Wed, May 5, 2010 at 8:35 AM, Tarwin Stroh-Spijer <[hidden email]> wrote:
It is a little hard to work out how to make a "good" HTML application in haXe at the moment but there are libraries out there that can help you, and they're not too heavy on requirements either. There's a CodeIgnither clone (sorry, it is clone-ish right?) or our own Poko (a new version coming soon - http://code.google.com/p/poko/) to get you started.

Thanks for bringing it up. It was cloneish, but haxigniter has actually gone quite far from the library it once tried to mimic. :) A better comparison now is ASP.NET MVC, which is nicer because codeigniter relies heavy on singletons and tight couplings. They are gone!

I've been away for a while from the project, but in the next couple of weeks I'm gonna drive it forward again. But it's in a workable state right now, so check it out if you like: http://wiki.github.com/ciscoheat/haxigniter/

/Andreas
 

Regards,


Tarwin Stroh-Spijer
_______________________

Touch My Pixel
http://www.touchmypixel.com/
phone: +61 3 8060 5321
_______________________



On Wed, May 5, 2010 at 11:28 AM, Justin Donaldson <[hidden email]> wrote:
I like this article:
http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/doc/leastPower.html

It gives a nice, simple strategy for choosing how to implement things on the web... at least if you want others to use or extend the code.

Of course, creating an obscure, heavily engineered, fast performing web application probably gives you some good job security instead ;)

-Justin


On Tue, May 4, 2010 at 7:45 PM, gershon <[hidden email]> wrote:
Consider this, is there a difference between an html page with some text, images and even forms, to the same (visually) page only rendered in flash?
My answer would be no. HTML is a textual format rendered by your browser, Flash (swf) is a binary format rendered by your browser's plugin.

Just like the programmer\designer prepares a flash page beforehand, so is the html page produced by either a designer or a programmer...
Its ascii nature makes "compiling" an html page an easier task for the programmer. A simple "Template Engine" can just take some existing html and add\transform it...
Like Franco said, you can use Templo for neko\php, or write your own regex-based, PHP has Smarty and some others...

A good starting point can be a simple neko app to load an html file, do some find&replace (regex is probably better than string manipulation, but it would do too) and print the result.

I'm currently using php and XML DOM too, the template is parsed, the dom gets manipulated and finally "printed", benefit here is that the output is strictly valid XHTML, and that i have no html "littering" my PHP.

"Traditional" PHP usually looks like:
<body>
<div>
<?PHP echo 'Hello World'; ?>
</div>
</body>

While my XML DOM usage looks like:
$page = new Page();
$page->appendElement('body')->appendElement('div')->addText('Hello World');
$page->display();

Shorter, neater, well-formed and easier to debug.
And thats just PHP! There are ofcourse many other neat things you can later do on the client-side, I for instance inject some jQuery into the dom to have stuff like accessibility, animation, validation...

On Tue, May 4, 2010 at 7:36 PM, Franco Ponticelli <[hidden email]> wrote:

is it a newbee lack of recognition ?

I guess that is true ;)
HTML files are merely text files with a special syntax. What you do is using PHP/Neko/... to produce that pages.
How? The easiest why is probably using templates (look for Templo2) but it is not the only one; you can try string concatenation, an XML DOM converte to string or a mix.
Of course you don't want to have one application for every page you intend to produce so you will need a front controller of sort and I encourage you to have a look at haxigniter for that.
I hope I have not misunderstood your needs.

Franco.

--

haXe - an open source web programming language
http://haxe.org


--
haXe - an open source web programming language
http://haxe.org



--
Justin Donaldson
PhD Candidate, Informatics
Indiana University
http://www.scwn.net
aim: iujjd
twitter: jjdonald

--
haXe - an open source web programming language
http://haxe.org


--
haXe - an open source web programming language
http://haxe.org


--
haXe - an open source web programming language
http://haxe.org
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Re: fool question : where is HTML ?

tom rhodes
i've been using this in JS and php to create pages and elements of pages. it's still early days for it but someone might find it usefull...




On 5 May 2010 10:24, Andreas Söderlund <[hidden email]> wrote:
On Wed, May 5, 2010 at 8:35 AM, Tarwin Stroh-Spijer <[hidden email]> wrote:
It is a little hard to work out how to make a "good" HTML application in haXe at the moment but there are libraries out there that can help you, and they're not too heavy on requirements either. There's a CodeIgnither clone (sorry, it is clone-ish right?) or our own Poko (a new version coming soon - http://code.google.com/p/poko/) to get you started.

Thanks for bringing it up. It was cloneish, but haxigniter has actually gone quite far from the library it once tried to mimic. :) A better comparison now is ASP.NET MVC, which is nicer because codeigniter relies heavy on singletons and tight couplings. They are gone!

I've been away for a while from the project, but in the next couple of weeks I'm gonna drive it forward again. But it's in a workable state right now, so check it out if you like: http://wiki.github.com/ciscoheat/haxigniter/

/Andreas
 

Regards,


Tarwin Stroh-Spijer
_______________________

Touch My Pixel
http://www.touchmypixel.com/
phone: +61 3 8060 5321
_______________________



On Wed, May 5, 2010 at 11:28 AM, Justin Donaldson <[hidden email]> wrote:
I like this article:
http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/doc/leastPower.html

It gives a nice, simple strategy for choosing how to implement things on the web... at least if you want others to use or extend the code.

Of course, creating an obscure, heavily engineered, fast performing web application probably gives you some good job security instead ;)

-Justin


On Tue, May 4, 2010 at 7:45 PM, gershon <[hidden email]> wrote:
Consider this, is there a difference between an html page with some text, images and even forms, to the same (visually) page only rendered in flash?
My answer would be no. HTML is a textual format rendered by your browser, Flash (swf) is a binary format rendered by your browser's plugin.

Just like the programmer\designer prepares a flash page beforehand, so is the html page produced by either a designer or a programmer...
Its ascii nature makes "compiling" an html page an easier task for the programmer. A simple "Template Engine" can just take some existing html and add\transform it...
Like Franco said, you can use Templo for neko\php, or write your own regex-based, PHP has Smarty and some others...

A good starting point can be a simple neko app to load an html file, do some find&replace (regex is probably better than string manipulation, but it would do too) and print the result.

I'm currently using php and XML DOM too, the template is parsed, the dom gets manipulated and finally "printed", benefit here is that the output is strictly valid XHTML, and that i have no html "littering" my PHP.

"Traditional" PHP usually looks like:
<body>
<div>
<?PHP echo 'Hello World'; ?>
</div>
</body>

While my XML DOM usage looks like:
$page = new Page();
$page->appendElement('body')->appendElement('div')->addText('Hello World');
$page->display();

Shorter, neater, well-formed and easier to debug.
And thats just PHP! There are ofcourse many other neat things you can later do on the client-side, I for instance inject some jQuery into the dom to have stuff like accessibility, animation, validation...

On Tue, May 4, 2010 at 7:36 PM, Franco Ponticelli <[hidden email]> wrote:

is it a newbee lack of recognition ?

I guess that is true ;)
HTML files are merely text files with a special syntax. What you do is using PHP/Neko/... to produce that pages.
How? The easiest why is probably using templates (look for Templo2) but it is not the only one; you can try string concatenation, an XML DOM converte to string or a mix.
Of course you don't want to have one application for every page you intend to produce so you will need a front controller of sort and I encourage you to have a look at haxigniter for that.
I hope I have not misunderstood your needs.

Franco.

--

haXe - an open source web programming language
http://haxe.org


--
haXe - an open source web programming language
http://haxe.org



--
Justin Donaldson
PhD Candidate, Informatics
Indiana University
http://www.scwn.net
aim: iujjd
twitter: jjdonald

--
haXe - an open source web programming language
http://haxe.org


--
haXe - an open source web programming language
http://haxe.org


--
haXe - an open source web programming language
http://haxe.org


--
haXe - an open source web programming language
http://haxe.org

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