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dart

blackdog

http://www.dartlang.org/

LarsBak: we believe dart fills a vacuum

Bullshit.

--
Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication. ~ Leonardo da Vinci


--
haXe - an open source web programming language
http://haxe.org
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RE: dart

Lee Sylvester
Haha... James sent this to me.  The more I read into it, the more it seems
pointless.  It doesn't do anything new and doesn't provide me with anything
I couldn't do with haXe.

Lee



-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email]
[mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of blackdog
Sent: 10 October 2011 10:56
To: The haXe compiler list
Subject: [haXe] dart


http://www.dartlang.org/

LarsBak: we believe dart fills a vacuum

Bullshit.

--
Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication. ~ Leonardo da Vinci


--
haXe - an open source web programming language
http://haxe.org


--
haXe - an open source web programming language
http://haxe.org
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Re: dart

fintan boyle
maybe it will help create a mind shift with javascript developers that  'javascript is a language you compile to'

;-)

On Mon, Oct 10, 2011 at 11:01 AM, Lee Sylvester <[hidden email]> wrote:
Haha... James sent this to me.  The more I read into it, the more it seems
pointless.  It doesn't do anything new and doesn't provide me with anything
I couldn't do with haXe.

Lee



-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email]
[mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of blackdog
Sent: 10 October 2011 10:56
To: The haXe compiler list
Subject: [haXe] dart


http://www.dartlang.org/

LarsBak: we believe dart fills a vacuum

Bullshit.

--
Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication. ~ Leonardo da Vinci


--
haXe - an open source web programming language
http://haxe.org


--
haXe - an open source web programming language
http://haxe.org


--
haXe - an open source web programming language
http://haxe.org
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Re: dart

Pimm Hogeling
"maybe it will help create a mind shift with javascript developers that  'javascript is a language you compile to'"
Browsers will be able to run Dart code directly.

--
haXe - an open source web programming language
http://haxe.org
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Re: dart

Franco Ponticelli
Browsers will be able to run Dart code directly.

Should be: Chrome will be able to run Dart code directly.

I don't see Dart as a bad thing for haxe ... maybe at some point it will be possible to target the Dart VM directly with haxe or the Dart language (less interesting from my POV) and if Dart brings new tools to play that's just more fun ;)

Franco

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http://haxe.org
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Re: dart

clemos
In reply to this post by Lee Sylvester
Hi,

I don't really see the point either.
Not to mention haXe, I don't see how this one could compete with plain
Javascript, either client or server-side.
It doesn't even seem to target IE right now... ???

For the moment it looks more like a set of small tricks and syntax
sugar (depending on your tastes, though) than an actual programming
language...
For most of them, these tricks aren't even valuable to me (named
constructors, string literals ? meh... "string interpolation" ? looks
more like a very poor PHP-like templating engine...)

Cheers,
Clément

On Mon, Oct 10, 2011 at 12:01 PM, Lee Sylvester <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Haha... James sent this to me.  The more I read into it, the more it seems
> pointless.  It doesn't do anything new and doesn't provide me with anything
> I couldn't do with haXe.
>
> Lee
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [hidden email]
> [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of blackdog
> Sent: 10 October 2011 10:56
> To: The haXe compiler list
> Subject: [haXe] dart
>
>
> http://www.dartlang.org/
>
> LarsBak: we believe dart fills a vacuum
>
> Bullshit.
>
> --
> Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication. ~ Leonardo da Vinci
>
>
> --
> haXe - an open source web programming language
> http://haxe.org
>
>
> --
> haXe - an open source web programming language
> http://haxe.org
>

--
haXe - an open source web programming language
http://haxe.org
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Re: dart

Franco Ponticelli
For the moment it looks more like a set of small tricks and syntax
sugar (depending on your tastes, though) than an actual programming
language...
For most of them, these tricks aren't even valuable to me (named
constructors, string literals ? meh... "string interpolation" ? looks
more like a very poor PHP-like templating engine...)


My idea is that with a more structured language, Google will be able to further enhance performances. Also I expect they will release libraries to replace GWT once and for all and to move away from Java.

Franco


--
haXe - an open source web programming language
http://haxe.org
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Re: dart

Pimm Hogeling
In reply to this post by Franco Ponticelli
Should be: Chrome will be able to run Dart code directly.
I see no reason to assume Firefox, Opera, Safari and IE won't support Dart.

--
haXe - an open source web programming language
http://haxe.org
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Re: dart

Franco Ponticelli
I see no reason why they should ... it doesn't mean that they cannot or they will not.

On Mon, Oct 10, 2011 at 12:05 PM, Pimm Hogeling <[hidden email]> wrote:
Should be: Chrome will be able to run Dart code directly.
I see no reason to assume Firefox, Opera, Safari and IE won't support Dart.

--
haXe - an open source web programming language
http://haxe.org


--
haXe - an open source web programming language
http://haxe.org
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Re: dart

Juraj Kirchheim
In reply to this post by clemos
As far as I understood:

1. there will be a Dart -> JavaScript fallback to run dart in all
non-dartable js environments.
2. when running on the dart vm, dart aims at leveraging runtime static
typing (which inherently comprises a not-totally-weird identifier
resolution strategy) and should be able to outperform the js runtimes
by quite a factor.

So I don't think the comparison with PHP fits very well. Instead, my
guess is, that we're looking at a formidable, high-performance,
in-browser target for haXe and we might even not have to care about
fallbacks.


On Mon, Oct 10, 2011 at 12:48 PM, clemos <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi,
>
> I don't really see the point either.
> Not to mention haXe, I don't see how this one could compete with plain
> Javascript, either client or server-side.
> It doesn't even seem to target IE right now... ???
>
> For the moment it looks more like a set of small tricks and syntax
> sugar (depending on your tastes, though) than an actual programming
> language...
> For most of them, these tricks aren't even valuable to me (named
> constructors, string literals ? meh... "string interpolation" ? looks
> more like a very poor PHP-like templating engine...)
>
> Cheers,
> Clément
>
> On Mon, Oct 10, 2011 at 12:01 PM, Lee Sylvester <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> Haha... James sent this to me.  The more I read into it, the more it seems
>> pointless.  It doesn't do anything new and doesn't provide me with anything
>> I couldn't do with haXe.
>>
>> Lee
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: [hidden email]
>> [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of blackdog
>> Sent: 10 October 2011 10:56
>> To: The haXe compiler list
>> Subject: [haXe] dart
>>
>>
>> http://www.dartlang.org/
>>
>> LarsBak: we believe dart fills a vacuum
>>
>> Bullshit.
>>
>> --
>> Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication. ~ Leonardo da Vinci
>>
>>
>> --
>> haXe - an open source web programming language
>> http://haxe.org
>>
>>
>> --
>> haXe - an open source web programming language
>> http://haxe.org
>>
>
> --
> haXe - an open source web programming language
> http://haxe.org
>

--
haXe - an open source web programming language
http://haxe.org
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Re: dart

blackdog
In reply to this post by Franco Ponticelli

Actually would be a good haxe target in that we could also generate types for performance benefits over vanilla js.

Ritchie

On 10/10/2011 07:54 AM, Franco Ponticelli wrote:
For the moment it looks more like a set of small tricks and syntax
sugar (depending on your tastes, though) than an actual programming
language...
For most of them, these tricks aren't even valuable to me (named
constructors, string literals ? meh... "string interpolation" ? looks
more like a very poor PHP-like templating engine...)


My idea is that with a more structured language, Google will be able to further enhance performances. Also I expect they will release libraries to replace GWT once and for all and to move away from Java.

Franco





-- 
Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication. ~ Leonardo da Vinci

--
haXe - an open source web programming language
http://haxe.org
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Re: dart

Nicolas Cannasse
In reply to this post by Franco Ponticelli

Franco Ponticelli <[hidden email]> a écrit :

>>
>> For the moment it looks more like a set of small tricks and syntax
>> sugar (depending on your tastes, though) than an actual programming
>> language...
>> For most of them, these tricks aren't even valuable to me (named
>> constructors, string literals ? meh... "string interpolation" ? looks
>> more like a very poor PHP-like templating engine...)
>>
>>
>My idea is that with a more structured language, Google will be able to
>further enhance performances. Also I expect they will release libraries
>to
>replace GWT once and for all and to move away from Java.
>
>Franco
>--
>haXe - an open source web programming language
>http://haxe.org

And lose all the java devs because of syntax changes...

--
haXe - an open source web programming language
http://haxe.org
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Re: dart

Juraj Kirchheim
>
> And lose all the java devs because of syntax changes...
>

Would you miss them? ;)

--
haXe - an open source web programming language
http://haxe.org
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Re: dart

danielku15
In reply to this post by blackdog
Unless such languages compile into multiple platforms like haXe they are useless. And as soon the C# and Java targets are finished haXe will rule all the other languages out there.
alx
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Re: dart

alx
In reply to this post by Juraj Kirchheim
Somewhere I've read that they created Dart in order to overcome some of the shortcomings of JavaScript.

I haven't found any example of something that JavaScript couldn't do and Dart does...

Aside from that, its language specification is written in a way that really intimidates the casual reader//programmer (they even "formatted" like some kind of scientific publication; probably in an attempt of being taken seriously).

http://haxe.org/ref is much better, any programmer can read that and get a sense of how haxe works very quickly.

IMHO

On Mon, Oct 10, 2011 at 6:27 AM, Juraj Kirchheim <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> And lose all the java devs because of syntax changes...
>

Would you miss them? ;)

--
haXe - an open source web programming language
http://haxe.org


--
haXe - an open source web programming language
http://haxe.org
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Re: dart

Pimm Hogeling
"Somewhere I've read that they created Dart in order to overcome some of the shortcomings of JavaScript.

I haven't found any example of something that JavaScript couldn't do and Dart does..."

That's true. But shortcomings of JavaScript don't come in the form of not being able to perform a certain task in the language.

From Dart's technical overview:

"[a problem] currently facing web developers is small scripts often evolve into large web applications with no apparent structure—they’re hard to debug and difficult to maintain. In addition, these monolithic apps can’t be split up so that different teams can work on them independently. It’s difficult to be productive when a web application gets large."




"Unless such languages compile into multiple platforms […] they are useless."

Dart will run in modern browsers, as well as on servers. Note that - apparently - compiling Dart is not the goal; browsers and servers will interpret Dart directly.




Juraj has the right idea:
"[…] we're looking at a formidable, high-performance, in-browser target for haXe."

2011/10/10 alx <[hidden email]>
Somewhere I've read that they created Dart in order to overcome some of the shortcomings of JavaScript.

I haven't found any example of something that JavaScript couldn't do and Dart does...

Aside from that, its language specification is written in a way that really intimidates the casual reader//programmer (they even "formatted" like some kind of scientific publication; probably in an attempt of being taken seriously).

http://haxe.org/ref is much better, any programmer can read that and get a sense of how haxe works very quickly.

IMHO

On Mon, Oct 10, 2011 at 6:27 AM, Juraj Kirchheim <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> And lose all the java devs because of syntax changes...
>

Would you miss them? ;)

--
haXe - an open source web programming language
http://haxe.org


--
haXe - an open source web programming language
http://haxe.org


--
haXe - an open source web programming language
http://haxe.org
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Re: dart

Johann Borck
On 10/11/2011 01:51 PM, Pimm Hogeling wrote:
> [...]
> Dart will run in modern browsers, as well as on servers. Note that - apparently - compiling Dart
> is not the goal; browsers and servers will interpret Dart directly.
>
What makes you so sure any browser (apart from chrome, obviously) will support dart? Have you seen
any personal statements from members of the respective development teams, or even official ones?
 From the google blog: "Dart code can be executed in two different ways: either on a native virtual
machine or on top of a JavaScript engine by using a compiler that translates Dart code to
JavaScript. This means you can write a web application in Dart and have it compiled and run on any
modern browser. The Dart VM is not currently integrated in Chrome but we plan to explore this
option. " - one vendor planning to explore the option is very different from "Dart will run in
modern browsers", isn't it?

I'd be interested whether dart project lead or some of the developers are aware of haxe and whether
they've contacted Nicolas to discuss if haxe might be an option for them. Frankly, I think they'll
have a hard time reinventing a wheel that plays in the same league, since according to the specs
dart is missing even haxes basic killer feature, type inference, which in my not so humble opinion
is the single biggest mistake you can make when creating a new language with any support for static
typing these days.

regards,
Johann


--
haXe - an open source web programming language
http://haxe.org
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Re: dart

Pimm Hogeling
"What makes you so sure any browser (apart from chrome, obviously) will support dart"
I feel Dart is really filling a vacuum. Therefore, I suspect Team Firefox and Team Opera will - eventually - embrace Dart.




"dart is missing even haxes basic killer feature, type inference"
You probably missed this article that states:
"[Dart] is dynamically typed. You can write programs that have no type annotations whatsoever, and run them, much as you would in JavaScript."

2011/10/11 Johann Borck <[hidden email]>
On 10/11/2011 01:51 PM, Pimm Hogeling wrote:
[...]

Dart will run in modern browsers, as well as on servers. Note that - apparently - compiling Dart is not the goal; browsers and servers will interpret Dart directly.

What makes you so sure any browser (apart from chrome, obviously) will support dart? Have you seen any personal statements from members of the respective development teams, or even official ones? From the google blog: "Dart code can be executed in two different ways: either on a native virtual machine or on top of a JavaScript engine by using a compiler that translates Dart code to JavaScript. This means you can write a web application in Dart and have it compiled and run on any modern browser. The Dart VM is not currently integrated in Chrome but we plan to explore this option. " - one vendor planning to explore the option is very different from "Dart will run in modern browsers", isn't it?

I'd be interested whether dart project lead or some of the developers are aware of haxe and whether they've contacted Nicolas to discuss if haxe might be an option for them. Frankly, I think they'll have a hard time reinventing a wheel that plays in the same league, since according to the specs dart is missing even haxes basic killer feature, type inference, which in my not so humble opinion is the single biggest mistake you can make when creating a new language with any support for static typing these days.

regards,
Johann



--
haXe - an open source web programming language
http://haxe.org


--
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http://haxe.org
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Re: dart

singmajesty
Though I must ask the question...

What if a Haxe compiler was included in a browser runtime?


Being handled on the fly seems like more of a Google thing than actually a  
language thing. You could certainly do the same thing with Haxe




On Tue, 11 Oct 2011 08:49:20 -0700, Pimm Hogeling <[hidden email]>  
wrote:

> "*What makes you so sure any browser (apart from chrome, obviously) will
> support dart*"
> I feel Dart is really filling a vacuum. Therefore, I suspect Team Firefox
> and Team Opera will - eventually - embrace Dart.
>
>
>
>
> "*dart is missing even haxes basic killer feature, type inference*"
> You probably missed this
> article<http://www.dartlang.org/articles/optional-types/>that states:
> "*[Dart] is dynamically typed. You can write programs that have no type
> annotations whatsoever, and run them, much as you would in JavaScript.*"
>
> 2011/10/11 Johann Borck <[hidden email]>
>
>> On 10/11/2011 01:51 PM, Pimm Hogeling wrote:
>>
>>> [...]
>>>
>>> Dart will run in modern browsers, as well as on servers. Note that -
>>> apparently - compiling Dart is not the goal; browsers and servers will
>>> interpret Dart directly.
>>>
>>>  What makes you so sure any browser (apart from chrome, obviously) will
>> support dart? Have you seen any personal statements from members of the
>> respective development teams, or even official ones? From the google  
>> blog:
>> "Dart code can be executed in two different ways: either on a native  
>> virtual
>> machine or on top of a JavaScript engine by using a compiler that  
>> translates
>> Dart code to JavaScript. This means you can write a web application in  
>> Dart
>> and have it compiled and run on any modern browser. The Dart VM is not
>> currently integrated in Chrome but we plan to explore this option. " -  
>> one
>> vendor planning to explore the option is very different from "Dart will  
>> run
>> in modern browsers", isn't it?
>>
>> I'd be interested whether dart project lead or some of the developers  
>> are
>> aware of haxe and whether they've contacted Nicolas to discuss if haxe  
>> might
>> be an option for them. Frankly, I think they'll have a hard time  
>> reinventing
>> a wheel that plays in the same league, since according to the specs  
>> dart is
>> missing even haxes basic killer feature, type inference, which in my  
>> not so
>> humble opinion is the single biggest mistake you can make when creating  
>> a
>> new language with any support for static typing these days.
>>
>> regards,
>> Johann
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> haXe - an open source web programming language
>> http://haxe.org

--
haXe - an open source web programming language
http://haxe.org
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Re: dart

blackdog
In reply to this post by blackdog
On 10/10/2011 06:56 AM, blackdog wrote:
http://www.dartlang.org/

LarsBak: we believe dart fills a vacuum

Bullshit.

    

Re my  initial post, if Lars actually believes this then the googlers didn't do their homework.

Here's a longer review of dart

http://blogs.perl.org/users/rafael_garcia-suarez/2011/10/why-dart-is-not-the-language-of-the-future.html

and hello world output in 17000 lines of js

http://apps.ycombinator.com/item?id=3097105

Kudos to Nicolas for nailing the problem of structured web programming 5 years ago with haXe, the more I see what the giants are producing the more I believe haXe is a competitive advantage.

R

-- 
Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication. ~ Leonardo da Vinci

--
haXe - an open source web programming language
http://haxe.org
12