The failure of AS3 ?

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The failure of AS3 ?

Nicolas Cannasse
Hi,

Took some time to write the following :
http://ncannasse.fr/blog/the_failure_of_as3

Feel free to comment here or on the blog ;)

Best,
Nicolas

--
haXe - an open source web programming language
http://haxe.org
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Re: The failure of AS3 ?

jlm@justinfront.net
Really liked the article, but it could be argued that AS3 is not the  
replacement for AS2...  the 'modern' approach/replacement Adobe's  
pushing is Flex.

What is haXe's alternative to Flex - do you feel Flex is a failure and  
if so why?

 From an old school Flasher perspective - which is sort of some of the  
argument you gave, custom class properties in haXe suck, I understand  
arguments both ways, but really not sure the current situation is good  
for attracting traditional flashers.

e4X is a blessing to work with in AS3 compared to the past, again the  
same arguments in haXe which I understand, but again not good for  
attracting traditional flashers.

So my view is that haXe is special enough to justify AS2/AS3 users  
switching, but unless the three points I have mentioned get addressed  
then I think flash users will feel like they are considering a swings  
and round-a-bouts dilemma, not ideal when trying to get users to  
abandon the standard?

haXe does not solve memory leak stuff in AS3 which scares the hell out  
of us traditional flashers or Application Domains in fact there is an  
issue there, but it would be great if we could get it to make life  
simplier? So I am not sure it solves more problems for flash users,  
but it may actually create a few.  So unless they use more than AS3  
there is not a huge difference for a non guru flasher, but  
unfortunately they don't realize haXe is not hard to switch to.

But really I am not sure the user base for haXe really needs to be  
traditional flashers, actually ironically the very Java developers and  
Dot net developers that Adobe have been trying to appease may well be  
many of the future haXe users as there all scared of flash IDE ( which  
I happen to like ), to be frank, php, javascript and html developers  
are mostly happy to toil away with crap languages. So eventually it  
will probably be the code libraries created by hardcore coders in haXe  
that will eventually catch the AS3 developers and the main stream html-
ers.  But the flash community do like innovation so there is a chance  
there could be a big switch, but at the moment when I mention haXe to  
design agencies I get blank faces although the Iphone stuff will help  
once its more stable and haXevideo and multiplayer applications etc...

Not aiming to be negative just adding my balance, it is not that haXe  
is better than AS3 that will make people switch, it is code that makes  
it viable to do hard things easily that will eventually convert people  
because if they find they have 2 weeks to create a multiplayer game  
or... and they can't afford to hire in a Ruby* developer (*replace  
with language of choice) then suddenly they will start using it,  
providing there is enough blogs to steal code from :).

The title especially made me smile, I still like AS1!


Cheers ;j



On 8 Aug 2009, at 00:05, Nicolas Cannasse wrote:

> Hi,
>
> Took some time to write the following :
> http://ncannasse.fr/blog/the_failure_of_as3
>
> Feel free to comment here or on the blog ;)
>
> Best,
> Nicolas
>
> --
> haXe - an open source web programming language
> http://haxe.org


--
haXe - an open source web programming language
http://haxe.org
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Re: The failure of AS3 ?

Chris Hecker
In reply to this post by Nicolas Cannasse

Good rant, as usual, but if you want people to try haxe, I think the
multiple library swc input thing needs to be fixed so people can just
use any as3 library they want.  This is one thing the alternative jvm
languages like scala do well, they make it super easy to use existing
libraries.

Chris


Nicolas Cannasse wrote:

> Hi,
>
> Took some time to write the following :
> http://ncannasse.fr/blog/the_failure_of_as3
>
> Feel free to comment here or on the blog ;)
>
> Best,
> Nicolas
>

--
haXe - an open source web programming language
http://haxe.org
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Re: The failure of AS3 ?

Trevor Burton
It may be true that Haxe isn't yet ready to be a perfect alternative for Flash developers. But the important point here is that if you have a problem/idea/suggestion/bug for Haxe you can submit it and it'll be judged on its merits and, if necessary, will be put into the language/compiler whatever. This is not what happens when you find a problem (and even when you find a solution for that problem) with Actionscript - Adobe don't won't to even acknowledge you if you contact them, or if they do it's more than likely that it'll be to deny it.

It's this openness that Nicolas mentions that gives Haxe a positive future and Actionscript an uncertain one. By uncertain i mean in its development, the direction it takes in its design. It's still going to be popular cause of the ubiquity of the flash player. But if it's easy to get setup using haxe and, like other posters have said, use your existing AS3 libraries so you don't have to rewrite code you've been using for a while and there's a sense that the language is going in the direction that users want it to go, then there becomes less and less reason to use Actionscript at all when targeting the flash player - which should be a huge embarrasment for Adobe, but when you employ people and give them the title of 'Product Evangelist' you get the sense that they're not that keen on listening to alternative views.

I've been lucky enough to talk to one of the Flash Player engineers and you get a real sense of the pride he has in the product he works on - he's put a lot of time and energy into the player and he's keen to hear what problems flash users have. But you'd never know that there was this level of dedication from the way Adobe react to their users. He goes to conferences because it's the only way he can hear from us users?

the iphone could well be the killer target for haxe - attracting users who can't (or don't want to) get their heads around objective-c. They come for the iPhone and they stay for everything else that it offers.

Having grown up as a developer with Flash (AS1 was the first language i learnt) i have a soft spot for it - but as i get more and more serious as a developer i'm looking around more and more for another platform to devote my time and effort to.

T

On Sat, Aug 8, 2009 at 8:15 AM, Chris Hecker <[hidden email]> wrote:

Good rant, as usual, but if you want people to try haxe, I think the multiple library swc input thing needs to be fixed so people can just use any as3 library they want.  This is one thing the alternative jvm languages like scala do well, they make it super easy to use existing libraries.

Chris



Nicolas Cannasse wrote:
Hi,

Took some time to write the following :
http://ncannasse.fr/blog/the_failure_of_as3

Feel free to comment here or on the blog ;)

Best,
Nicolas


--
haXe - an open source web programming language
http://haxe.org



--
Trevor Burton
http://www.flashmonkey.org
http://www.paperworld3d.com
http://www.infrared5.com

--
haXe - an open source web programming language
http://haxe.org
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Re: The failure of AS3 ?

Armén
In reply to this post by Nicolas Cannasse
Good article.

But I find it a bit hypocritical that you, Nicolas, talk of the
importance of expressiveness but don't like the "with" keyword while
there are no real alternatives to it in haXe, besides the good-old
"let's make a meaningless variable name shortcut and use it instead!"
hack. I think I am much more sensitive to importance of expressiveness
as you, if we judge things by status-quo. I am just about as old as
you, and have been developing software since I went to school a good
decade ago. Imagine how much typing we do. Our muscles are not built
for that. Let us for once take a minute of silence and think about it
- how our programming languages end up enslaving us, instead of us
enslaving the machine to do our bidding, as it ought to. I don't want
to type a single extra letter anymore. That is not what we should be
payed for. We are payed for our logical skills.

Other than my rant, lot of valid points regarding AS3 indeed. All in
all a very useful read, probably ever more so for the "fancy"
ActionScripters with Adobe Flash CS4 and MacBooks, hehehe.

On Sat, Aug 8, 2009 at 01:05, Nicolas Cannasse<[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi,
>
> Took some time to write the following :
> http://ncannasse.fr/blog/the_failure_of_as3
>
> Feel free to comment here or on the blog ;)
>
> Best,
> Nicolas
>
> --
> haXe - an open source web programming language
> http://haxe.org
>

--
haXe - an open source web programming language
http://haxe.org
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Re: The failure of AS3 ?

Nicolas Cannasse
[hidden email] a écrit :
> Good article.
>
> But I find it a bit hypocritical that you, Nicolas, talk of the
> importance of expressiveness but don't like the "with" keyword

Sorry if I was not clear in my post, I was talking about expressiveness
in terms of type system, not it terms of syntax, although I agree the
later is sometimes important, hence the "more expressive" default 'for'
loop in haXe.

Nicolas

--
haXe - an open source web programming language
http://haxe.org
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Re: The failure of AS3 ?

Armén
No problem, Nicolas. You just have sacrificed some expressiveness in
your article ;-)

On Sat, Aug 8, 2009 at 11:43, Nicolas Cannasse<[hidden email]> wrote:

> [hidden email] a écrit :
>>
>> Good article.
>>
>> But I find it a bit hypocritical that you, Nicolas, talk of the
>> importance of expressiveness but don't like the "with" keyword
>
> Sorry if I was not clear in my post, I was talking about expressiveness in
> terms of type system, not it terms of syntax, although I agree the later is
> sometimes important, hence the "more expressive" default 'for' loop in haXe.
>
> Nicolas
>
> --
> haXe - an open source web programming language
> http://haxe.org
>

--
haXe - an open source web programming language
http://haxe.org
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Re: The failure of AS3 ?

Mark de Bruijn | Dykam
In reply to this post by jlm@justinfront.net


On Sat, Aug 8, 2009 at 7:17 AM, Justin Lawerance Mills <[hidden email]> wrote:
...

But really I am not sure the user base for haXe really needs to be traditional flashers, actually ironically the very Java developers and Dot net developers that Adobe have been trying to appease may well be many of the future haXe users as there all scared of flash IDE ( which I happen to like ), to be frank, php, javascript and html developers are mostly happy to toil away with crap languages. So eventually it will probably be the code libraries created by hardcore coders in haXe that will eventually catch the AS3 developers and the main stream html-ers.  But the flash community do like innovation so there is a chance there could be a big switch, but at the moment when I mention haXe to design agencies I get blank faces although the Iphone stuff will help once its more stable and haXevideo and multiplayer applications etc

Funny you say that dotNet developers may be the future users of haXe. You hit the right spot. I find myself a dotNet developer (and Mono enthusiast), programming in C#, trying to get the most out of the language, and discovering new tricks and possibilities all the time. When I was asked by someone, leading/starting a small Flash programming company, for be a developer I agreed and started learning AS3 together with some novices. The difference, besides working slow because of their novice programming skills which bored me, I was really disappointed with AS3. In first view it looked like a normal, solid OO language, but slowly I discovered things which weren't in AS3 which were in C#. I can name a ton, biggest being not really being static typed. So I partially quited the company. Then I discovered haXe. After playing around with it, I found it a fairly better language than AS3, though not really matured. That didn't bother me, as it was only for fun.

But I don't know if Java developers will be pulled to haXe, as AS3 is closer to Java than haXe is, I think. HaXe compares better to C#.

 

...

On 8 Aug 2009, at 00:05, Nicolas Cannasse wrote:

Hi,

Took some time to write the following :
http://ncannasse.fr/blog/the_failure_of_as3

Feel free to comment here or on the blog ;)

Best,
Nicolas

--
haXe - an open source web programming language
http://haxe.org


--
haXe - an open source web programming language
http://haxe.org



--
Mark

--
haXe - an open source web programming language
http://haxe.org
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Re: The failure of AS3 ?

makc
In reply to this post by Trevor Burton
On Sat, Aug 8, 2009 at 12:20 PM, Trevor
Burton<[hidden email]> wrote:
> It may be true that Haxe isn't yet ready to be a perfect alternative for
> Flash developers. But the important point here is that if you have a
> problem/idea/suggestion/bug for Haxe you can submit it and it'll be judged
> on its merits and, if necessary, will be put into the language/compiler
> whatever. This is not what happens when you find a problem (and even when
> you find a solution for that problem) with Actionscript - Adobe don't won't
> to even acknowledge you if you contact them, or if they do it's more than
> likely that it'll be to deny it.
>

I dont think it's fair perspective, it's not like Nicolas will fix
everything you want him to (cough... swc), so it does not matter at
all if he acknowledge your complaint or not.

--
haXe - an open source web programming language
http://haxe.org
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Re: The failure of AS3 ?

Tony Polinelli
I have had some times when i've mentioned language features, or what i
would see to be holes or bugs in haxe, and nicolas has not heeded my
opinions on things. My options art always everyone elses. The thing is
that not everything i say is necessarily that wise, or correct.
Nicolas has done a great job of designing an excellent language,
better then most, if not all of us, could have (definately me). It is
great that he takes feedback, and feature requests (like swc) from
people, and is working very hard to please all of us little monkeys
with our crazy requests, but everything will happen in due time - and
i guess not everything you suggest WILL happen - mostly for good
reasons.

I think this is fairly different from Adobe's stone wall approach to
feedback - which we (just ask Tarwin) have had hell dealing with over
bugs in cs4 over the last 6 months. They have been quite rude, and
insult your intelligence everytime you post a bug (often saying things
like - have you got enough memory, have your tried deleting your cache
- not atall related to the bug).

I dont belive that haxe is yet a perfect substitute for as3, they both
have differing strengths. I've found that its best strength is the
multiple targets, and how you can integrate the flash with other
targets. Alone, i'd probably (most definately... due to laziness to
change) still be using flash.

I am excited to see where haxe is heading, iphone, hxgui, html 5 with
canvas + neash, js in general, and i guess flash... but it just takes
input and effort from the community - the compiler is already a great
tool, with or without what you perceive its shortcomings. Thanks again
to the core team + nicolas.

Tony


On Sun, Aug 9, 2009 at 8:42 PM, Makc<[hidden email]> wrote:

> On Sat, Aug 8, 2009 at 12:20 PM, Trevor
> Burton<[hidden email]> wrote:
>> It may be true that Haxe isn't yet ready to be a perfect alternative for
>> Flash developers. But the important point here is that if you have a
>> problem/idea/suggestion/bug for Haxe you can submit it and it'll be judged
>> on its merits and, if necessary, will be put into the language/compiler
>> whatever. This is not what happens when you find a problem (and even when
>> you find a solution for that problem) with Actionscript - Adobe don't won't
>> to even acknowledge you if you contact them, or if they do it's more than
>> likely that it'll be to deny it.
>>
>
> I dont think it's fair perspective, it's not like Nicolas will fix
> everything you want him to (cough... swc), so it does not matter at
> all if he acknowledge your complaint or not.
>
> --
> haXe - an open source web programming language
> http://haxe.org
>



--
Tony Polinelli
http://touchmypixel.com

--
haXe - an open source web programming language
http://haxe.org
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Re: The failure of AS3 ?

Armén
Let's just make sure we avoid personality cults ;-)

On Sun, Aug 9, 2009 at 15:36, Tony Polinelli<[hidden email]> wrote:

> I have had some times when i've mentioned language features, or what i
> would see to be holes or bugs in haxe, and nicolas has not heeded my
> opinions on things. My options art always everyone elses. The thing is
> that not everything i say is necessarily that wise, or correct.
> Nicolas has done a great job of designing an excellent language,
> better then most, if not all of us, could have (definately me). It is
> great that he takes feedback, and feature requests (like swc) from
> people, and is working very hard to please all of us little monkeys
> with our crazy requests, but everything will happen in due time - and
> i guess not everything you suggest WILL happen - mostly for good
> reasons.
>
> I think this is fairly different from Adobe's stone wall approach to
> feedback - which we (just ask Tarwin) have had hell dealing with over
> bugs in cs4 over the last 6 months. They have been quite rude, and
> insult your intelligence everytime you post a bug (often saying things
> like - have you got enough memory, have your tried deleting your cache
> - not atall related to the bug).
>
> I dont belive that haxe is yet a perfect substitute for as3, they both
> have differing strengths. I've found that its best strength is the
> multiple targets, and how you can integrate the flash with other
> targets. Alone, i'd probably (most definately... due to laziness to
> change) still be using flash.
>
> I am excited to see where haxe is heading, iphone, hxgui, html 5 with
> canvas + neash, js in general, and i guess flash... but it just takes
> input and effort from the community - the compiler is already a great
> tool, with or without what you perceive its shortcomings. Thanks again
> to the core team + nicolas.
>
> Tony
>
>
> On Sun, Aug 9, 2009 at 8:42 PM, Makc<[hidden email]> wrote:
>> On Sat, Aug 8, 2009 at 12:20 PM, Trevor
>> Burton<[hidden email]> wrote:
>>> It may be true that Haxe isn't yet ready to be a perfect alternative for
>>> Flash developers. But the important point here is that if you have a
>>> problem/idea/suggestion/bug for Haxe you can submit it and it'll be judged
>>> on its merits and, if necessary, will be put into the language/compiler
>>> whatever. This is not what happens when you find a problem (and even when
>>> you find a solution for that problem) with Actionscript - Adobe don't won't
>>> to even acknowledge you if you contact them, or if they do it's more than
>>> likely that it'll be to deny it.
>>>
>>
>> I dont think it's fair perspective, it's not like Nicolas will fix
>> everything you want him to (cough... swc), so it does not matter at
>> all if he acknowledge your complaint or not.
>>
>> --
>> haXe - an open source web programming language
>> http://haxe.org
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Tony Polinelli
> http://touchmypixel.com
>
> --
> haXe - an open source web programming language
> http://haxe.org
>

--
haXe - an open source web programming language
http://haxe.org
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Re: The failure of AS3 ?

Lee Sylvester
In reply to this post by jlm@justinfront.net
Just so I can point something out (with regard to Justins comment). I
wouldn't call Flex a failure, but I would say it's wholly incomplete. I
get very frustrated with working with the Flex framework in mostly AS3.
Just dealing with some of the more complex controls can be very
frustrating. Also, the Flex application doesn't work very well alongside
the Flash IDE; have a go at getting a ViewStack to work inside an
imported Flash IDE built MovieClip... Or, try getting the Flex
FocusManager to work with TextFields contained in a SWF exported from
the Flash IDE. You'll get plenty of annoying errors.

In short, Flex isn't 'flex'ible enough. It's a battle using MXML with
ActionScript 3, Flex ActionScript 3 with Flash IDE assets or MXML with
Flash IDE assets. Don't get me wrong, I love Flex. I use it 60% of the
time with my work, but really that's mostly due to the awesome debugger
than any other feature I can name. I'd quite happily use third party
tools or a custom framework for any other feature Flex provides.

Lee





Justin Lawerance Mills wrote:

> Really liked the article, but it could be argued that AS3 is not the
> replacement for AS2...  the 'modern' approach/replacement Adobe's
> pushing is Flex.
>
> What is haXe's alternative to Flex - do you feel Flex is a failure and
> if so why?
>
> From an old school Flasher perspective - which is sort of some of the
> argument you gave, custom class properties in haXe suck, I understand
> arguments both ways, but really not sure the current situation is good
> for attracting traditional flashers.
>
> e4X is a blessing to work with in AS3 compared to the past, again the
> same arguments in haXe which I understand, but again not good for
> attracting traditional flashers.
>
> So my view is that haXe is special enough to justify AS2/AS3 users
> switching, but unless the three points I have mentioned get addressed
> then I think flash users will feel like they are considering a swings
> and round-a-bouts dilemma, not ideal when trying to get users to
> abandon the standard?
>
> haXe does not solve memory leak stuff in AS3 which scares the hell out
> of us traditional flashers or Application Domains in fact there is an
> issue there, but it would be great if we could get it to make life
> simplier? So I am not sure it solves more problems for flash users,
> but it may actually create a few.  So unless they use more than AS3
> there is not a huge difference for a non guru flasher, but
> unfortunately they don't realize haXe is not hard to switch to.
>
> But really I am not sure the user base for haXe really needs to be
> traditional flashers, actually ironically the very Java developers and
> Dot net developers that Adobe have been trying to appease may well be
> many of the future haXe users as there all scared of flash IDE ( which
> I happen to like ), to be frank, php, javascript and html developers
> are mostly happy to toil away with crap languages. So eventually it
> will probably be the code libraries created by hardcore coders in haXe
> that will eventually catch the AS3 developers and the main stream
> html-ers.  But the flash community do like innovation so there is a
> chance there could be a big switch, but at the moment when I mention
> haXe to design agencies I get blank faces although the Iphone stuff
> will help once its more stable and haXevideo and multiplayer
> applications etc...
>
> Not aiming to be negative just adding my balance, it is not that haXe
> is better than AS3 that will make people switch, it is code that makes
> it viable to do hard things easily that will eventually convert people
> because if they find they have 2 weeks to create a multiplayer game
> or... and they can't afford to hire in a Ruby* developer (*replace
> with language of choice) then suddenly they will start using it,
> providing there is enough blogs to steal code from :).
>
> The title especially made me smile, I still like AS1!
>
>
> Cheers ;j
>
>
>
> On 8 Aug 2009, at 00:05, Nicolas Cannasse wrote:
>
>> Hi,
>>
>> Took some time to write the following :
>> http://ncannasse.fr/blog/the_failure_of_as3
>>
>> Feel free to comment here or on the blog ;)
>>
>> Best,
>> Nicolas
>>
>> --
>> haXe - an open source web programming language
>> http://haxe.org
>
>


--
haXe - an open source web programming language
http://haxe.org
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Re: The failure of AS3 ?

Nicolas Cannasse
Lee McColl Sylvester a écrit :
> Just so I can point something out (with regard to Justins comment). I
> wouldn't call Flex a failure

I was of course talking about AS3 as a programming language, not as a
product or as technology, I guess most people understood it, but some
comments on my blog show that some didn't :)

> In short, Flex isn't 'flex'ible enough. It's a battle using MXML with
> ActionScript 3, Flex ActionScript 3 with Flash IDE assets or MXML with
> Flash IDE assets. Don't get me wrong, I love Flex. I use it 60% of the
> time with my work, but really that's mostly due to the awesome debugger
> than any other feature I can name. I'd quite happily use third party
> tools or a custom framework for any other feature Flex provides.

I think that with FlashDevelop3 you have an (experimental?) debugger,
that should be compatible with 'haxe -debug -D fdb' , never tried it though.

Maybe Philippe can comment about current debugger status in FD3 ?

Nicolas

--
haXe - an open source web programming language
http://haxe.org
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Re: The failure of AS3 ?

Lee Sylvester
Sorry, Nicolas, I actually haven't gotten round to reading your article
yet ;-)  I was merely commenting on Justin's comment about Flex :-D  
I'll read your article in a moment and comment about that too...

Best,
Lee





Nicolas Cannasse wrote:

> Lee McColl Sylvester a écrit :
>> Just so I can point something out (with regard to Justins comment). I
>> wouldn't call Flex a failure
>
> I was of course talking about AS3 as a programming language, not as a
> product or as technology, I guess most people understood it, but some
> comments on my blog show that some didn't :)
>
>> In short, Flex isn't 'flex'ible enough. It's a battle using MXML with
>> ActionScript 3, Flex ActionScript 3 with Flash IDE assets or MXML
>> with Flash IDE assets. Don't get me wrong, I love Flex. I use it 60%
>> of the time with my work, but really that's mostly due to the awesome
>> debugger than any other feature I can name. I'd quite happily use
>> third party tools or a custom framework for any other feature Flex
>> provides.
>
> I think that with FlashDevelop3 you have an (experimental?) debugger,
> that should be compatible with 'haxe -debug -D fdb' , never tried it
> though.
>
> Maybe Philippe can comment about current debugger status in FD3 ?
>
> Nicolas
>


--
haXe - an open source web programming language
http://haxe.org
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Re: The failure of AS3 ?

theRemix
In reply to this post by Nicolas Cannasse
Read it, nice article.

Reminds me of SimpleAS3. http://joshblog.net/2008/08/13/simpleas3-an-actionscript-framework-for-designers-animators-and-part-time-coders/
a project from last year. I've never tried it and it looks like it's  
dead http://code.google.com/p/simpleas3


-+> theRemix

On Aug 7, 2009, at 1:05 PM, Nicolas Cannasse wrote:

> Hi,
>
> Took some time to write the following :
> http://ncannasse.fr/blog/the_failure_of_as3
>
> Feel free to comment here or on the blog ;)
>
> Best,
> Nicolas
>
> --
> haXe - an open source web programming language
> http://haxe.org


--
haXe - an open source web programming language
http://haxe.org
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Re: The failure of AS3 ?

makc
excuse my rant, but this got me thinking aloud here:

On Tue, Aug 11, 2009 at 9:59 AM, theRemix<[hidden email]> wrote:
> a project from last year. I've never tried it and it looks like it's dead
> http://code.google.com/p/simpleas3
>

why dont we look at this from a distance for a moment:

1 people bi... complain about AS3 and list its problems (Moock at al)
2 you point them to open-source solution (like SimpleAS3 in this case,
I assume it does address some problems)
3 they ignore it and continue to complain about AS3 (current wave too,
including Nicolas)

it looks like noone is interested in any solution that comes not from
Adobe to me.

or why is Nicolas and others who 2nd him are so concerned about how
bad Adobe's proprietary AS3 is when they have such a wonderful
open-sourced alternative such as haXe? may it be that they simply
realize that, despite whatever they might want, Adobe has sole control
over flash platform and its language and that Adobe provides best
tools for platform that are sold (and - note, please - bought) for big
money, no matter how much they would like to claim that these tools
suck? I mean, what's there to complain about if you have better open
tools that you can use, right? If so, Adobe can just stick their
products up there somewhere, and we can all move along and code in
haXe and swfmill or whatever else is there (and is there anything else
btw).

I don't see why cant we just accept silently that in order to make the
best use of marked created and controlled by Adobe, we have to use
their tools no matter how imperfect or overpriced they are, in our
oppinion? If you don't like what Adobe does, why dont you just ignore
flash, stick to haXe an target all these other wonderful platforms,
for example iphone (finally), or write some javascript apps in
better-than-javascript language?

I am not trolling here, meaning you don't have to answer any of this,
in fact most of it are rethorical questions.

On the other side, to address Nicolas point here and to repeat what I
said on his blog - to haxe being so much better than as3 as a language
- guys ported sandy to haXe by hand, but it could easily be done by
script too, just open up random class in as3 and haxe, and you will
find almost no difference, with most lines literally identical and the
others merely re-implemented with different syntax (such as loops).
both as3 and haxe are, as haxe documentation puts it, "ECMA style"
languages - which actually reads that they are the same to great
extent.

Wops, that made into long rant, but hey everybody does it once in a
while, so why not.

--
haXe - an open source web programming language
http://haxe.org
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Re: The failure of AS3 ?

Juan Delgado
Good thing about constructive complaining is that you get what you
want. Well, not eveyrbody, but at least some people from time to time.
Example:

MovieClipLoader petition in April:

http://www.moock.org/blog/archives/000010.html

MovieClipLoader official in the player in October:

http://www.moock.org/blog/archives/000060.html

Criticism is GOOD, it helps move the platform forwards.

The issue is that Flash is so big these days and it's used in so many
different scenarios that it's impossible to please everybody. Some
people want 3D engines, some other people just want Adobe to fix the
bugs before adding more features (like me).

What you are spot on is about Flash being Adobe's tool and that they
can do whatever they want with it. But remember that we can also walk
away to other technologies. I use Flash because overall I'm happy with
the situation. I'll asses the conditions every now and then to decide
if I stay or leave. But because I *care*, I complain.

Cheers!

J

On Tue, Aug 11, 2009 at 11:58 AM, Makc<[hidden email]> wrote:

> excuse my rant, but this got me thinking aloud here:
>
> On Tue, Aug 11, 2009 at 9:59 AM, theRemix<[hidden email]> wrote:
>> a project from last year. I've never tried it and it looks like it's dead
>> http://code.google.com/p/simpleas3
>>
>
> why dont we look at this from a distance for a moment:
>
> 1 people bi... complain about AS3 and list its problems (Moock at al)
> 2 you point them to open-source solution (like SimpleAS3 in this case,
> I assume it does address some problems)
> 3 they ignore it and continue to complain about AS3 (current wave too,
> including Nicolas)
>
> it looks like noone is interested in any solution that comes not from
> Adobe to me.
>
> or why is Nicolas and others who 2nd him are so concerned about how
> bad Adobe's proprietary AS3 is when they have such a wonderful
> open-sourced alternative such as haXe? may it be that they simply
> realize that, despite whatever they might want, Adobe has sole control
> over flash platform and its language and that Adobe provides best
> tools for platform that are sold (and - note, please - bought) for big
> money, no matter how much they would like to claim that these tools
> suck? I mean, what's there to complain about if you have better open
> tools that you can use, right? If so, Adobe can just stick their
> products up there somewhere, and we can all move along and code in
> haXe and swfmill or whatever else is there (and is there anything else
> btw).
>
> I don't see why cant we just accept silently that in order to make the
> best use of marked created and controlled by Adobe, we have to use
> their tools no matter how imperfect or overpriced they are, in our
> oppinion? If you don't like what Adobe does, why dont you just ignore
> flash, stick to haXe an target all these other wonderful platforms,
> for example iphone (finally), or write some javascript apps in
> better-than-javascript language?
>
> I am not trolling here, meaning you don't have to answer any of this,
> in fact most of it are rethorical questions.
>
> On the other side, to address Nicolas point here and to repeat what I
> said on his blog - to haxe being so much better than as3 as a language
> - guys ported sandy to haXe by hand, but it could easily be done by
> script too, just open up random class in as3 and haxe, and you will
> find almost no difference, with most lines literally identical and the
> others merely re-implemented with different syntax (such as loops).
> both as3 and haxe are, as haxe documentation puts it, "ECMA style"
> languages - which actually reads that they are the same to great
> extent.
>
> Wops, that made into long rant, but hey everybody does it once in a
> while, so why not.
>
> --
> haXe - an open source web programming language
> http://haxe.org
>



--
Juan Delgado - Zárate
http://zarate.tv
http://blog.zarate.tv

--
haXe - an open source web programming language
http://haxe.org
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Re: The failure of AS3 ?

Nicolas Cannasse
In reply to this post by makc
Makc a écrit :
> or why is Nicolas and others who 2nd him are so concerned about how
> bad Adobe's proprietary AS3 is when they have such a wonderful
> open-sourced alternative such as haXe?

The main issue I see is that AS3 is impacting the way AVM2 is
implemented, which in turn impact the way I can compile haXe code to it.

Also, bad API design or GC issues impacts everybody, including haXe users.

> On the other side, to address Nicolas point here and to repeat what I
> said on his blog - to haxe being so much better than as3 as a language
> - guys ported sandy to haXe by hand, but it could easily be done by
> script too, just open up random class in as3 and haxe, and you will
> find almost no difference

I guess this is perfectly normal since it's a port that's been done
directly from AS3. In order to really make use of haXe this would
require some additional refactoring that should greatly increase both
speed and maintainability.

Nicolas

--
haXe - an open source web programming language
http://haxe.org