[NME] The one great worry...

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[NME] The one great worry...

Michael Cann
There is alot of talk about multi-platform development at the moment. I really like HaXe and NME and I want to push for its use at the company I work for. Everyone I talk to and present to agree its thats a great platform and got a lot going for it.

The one thing however that everyone mentions and I struggle to have an answer for is the one thing that I believe is preventing widespread haXe / NME adoption. That is that what happens if the main contributors to haXe or NME leave or stop contributing, what happens then?

For a while it would continue on fine but if Adobe or Apple change the platform or build process then everything could break (for NME that is). 

One answer may be that the developers within the company continue to maintain the library however this requires rather indepth knowledge and is dependent on those employees from not leaving. Another perceived negative by the employer is "why maintain a project that may benefit the competition?".

Is this just a general problem associated with building products on top of open-source projects?

P.S. I was going to post this on the NME forum but I guess its a question that could be targeted (perhaps to a lesser degree) to haXe as a whole too.

--
Mike Cann
http://www.mikecann.co.uk/


--
haXe - an open source web programming language
http://haxe.org
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Re: [NME] The one great worry...

singmajesty
I do not think there is perfect answer for this question, regarding any  
open-source project.


  1.) NME relies on Haxe


If there is concern that development could halt on NME, do know that Flash  
compilation (especially) is handled by the Haxe compiler. Historically,  
Haxe has been very fast to support new Flash Player features, sometimes  
faster than the Adobe Flex SDK.


  2.) NME is 4 years old


Although NME is becoming better known lately, the framework is 4 years  
old. Development hasn't stopped yet, why should it tomorrow?


  3.) Exit: Adobe AIR


If you want, you can compile to Flash (and subsequently to AIR) from NME.  
That means that any advancement Adobe might make with AIR in the future is  
still available as an option. I know at least one developer who publishes  
his NME game to AIR in order to publish for the BlackBerry Playbook, which  
uses AIR for its applications.


  4.) Exit: Actionscript 3


If a business decides to switch to Actionscript 3 instead of Haxe, they  
should be able to do so quickly. I spent 4 months on an isometric game  
engine in Haxe, then ported to AS3 in less than a day at my employer's  
request.


  5.) Exit: C++, Java and Objective-C


When you publish for one of NME's targets, it generates the source code  
before compiling. This means that you still have the source to your  
program. If you are not interested in the Actionscript 3 approach, and  
instead want a native C-based application, you would have ways of forking  
and writing as a strictly native application


  6.) Not as complex as you think


The install tool for NME is written in Haxe, and compiled for Neko. If  
something changes in the packaging or publishing for a current target, it  
is not terribly difficult to maintain. Similarly, once you get past the  
CFFI bridge between Haxe and C++, the code for NME is pretty  
straightforward. A normal C++ developer should be able to understand most  
of the code. Many game companies invest in their own build tools. It would  
not be difficult to work with NME, and any company that does so would not  
have to share the code



I am excited for NME, and hope that anyone who is interested in making  
changes would share those with us. "As you have received freely, freely  
give..."



On Tue, 11 Oct 2011 15:55:39 -0700, Michael Cann <[hidden email]>  
wrote:

> There is alot of talk about multi-platform development at the moment. I
> really like HaXe and NME and I want to push for its use at the company I
> work for. Everyone I talk to and present to agree its thats a great  
> platform
> and got a lot going for it.
>
> The one thing however that everyone mentions and I struggle to have an
> answer for is the one thing that I believe is preventing widespread haXe  
> /
> NME adoption. That is that what happens if the main contributors to haXe  
> or
> NME leave or stop contributing, what happens then?
>
> For a while it would continue on fine but if Adobe or Apple change the
> platform or build process then everything could break (for NME that is).
>
> One answer may be that the developers within the company continue to
> maintain the library however this requires rather indepth knowledge and  
> is
> dependent on those employees from not leaving. Another perceived  
> negative by
> the employer is "why maintain a project that may benefit the  
> competition?".
>
> Is this just a general problem associated with building products on top  
> of
> open-source projects?
>
> P.S. I was going to post this on the NME forum but I guess its a question
> that could be targeted (perhaps to a lesser degree) to haXe as a whole  
> too.

--
haXe - an open source web programming language
http://haxe.org
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RE: [NME] The one great worry...

Lee Sylvester
In reply to this post by Michael Cann

Hi Michael,

 

This is a question that crops up a lot, but one which isn’t well deserved.  Surprisingly, there are a lot of coders supporting both haXe and NME, including a number of companies.  Many people have invested time and money into haXe and NME.  Let me ask you this:  what is more stable?  A professional looking company with five employees supporting their own closed source software, or a community of several companies and many developers, working on open source software which invites further contributors over time?  The fact is, haXe and NME are less likely to disappear than products such as Corona or Titanium.  There is simply too much invested.  If one large group were to suddenly stop supporting these projects, it wouldn’t be noticed, as there are so many more who do contribute that life will simply go on.

 

I hope that answers your question.  It might not seem like it, but there are a LOT more developers supporting haXe and NME than you might think.  just look at how supportive the community is.  If that represents only a small fragment of the code contributors and financial supporters, then there is a great future for both projects.

 

Lee

 

 

 

From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Michael Cann
Sent: 11 October 2011 23:56
To: The haXe compiler list
Subject: [haXe] [NME] The one great worry...

 

There is alot of talk about multi-platform development at the moment. I really like HaXe and NME and I want to push for its use at the company I work for. Everyone I talk to and present to agree its thats a great platform and got a lot going for it.

 

The one thing however that everyone mentions and I struggle to have an answer for is the one thing that I believe is preventing widespread haXe / NME adoption. That is that what happens if the main contributors to haXe or NME leave or stop contributing, what happens then?

 

For a while it would continue on fine but if Adobe or Apple change the platform or build process then everything could break (for NME that is). 

 

One answer may be that the developers within the company continue to maintain the library however this requires rather indepth knowledge and is dependent on those employees from not leaving. Another perceived negative by the employer is "why maintain a project that may benefit the competition?".

 

Is this just a general problem associated with building products on top of open-source projects?

 

P.S. I was going to post this on the NME forum but I guess its a question that could be targeted (perhaps to a lesser degree) to haXe as a whole too.

 

--
Mike Cann
http://www.mikecann.co.uk/

 


--
haXe - an open source web programming language
http://haxe.org
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RE: [NME] The one great worry...

Jason Foster
In reply to this post by singmajesty
Most people get into developing apps in order to eat. My budding company
invested a substantial amount of time porting a sluggish, bulky AS3/Flex
project to haXe, while learning the language and its idiosyncrasies on the
fly.  The end result was a success - a commercially viable product that just
wasn't feasible with AS3. If/when there are some profits, I would love to
invest some of it back into haXe and FlashDevelop.  The whole ecosphere
developing around Haxe is amazing!  The next goal for our company (which is
still pre-market) is to take the application and target JS via NME, and have
a marketable app that can literally run on a billion Internet-connected
devices.

I guess what I'm getting at, is what options are there to support haXe
financially?  The philosophy that haXe is open source, volunteer and
community supported has worked very well so far, but at this point I think
there needs to be a commercial support option. The amazing work by the key
people and other contributors needs to be supported with cold hard cash.

Just my two bits.

Regards,

Jason Foster

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email]
[mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Joshua Granick
Sent: Tuesday, October 11, 2011 4:22 PM
To: The haXe compiler list
Subject: Re: [haXe] [NME] The one great worry...

I do not think there is perfect answer for this question, regarding any  
open-source project.


  1.) NME relies on Haxe


If there is concern that development could halt on NME, do know that Flash  
compilation (especially) is handled by the Haxe compiler. Historically,  
Haxe has been very fast to support new Flash Player features, sometimes  
faster than the Adobe Flex SDK.


  2.) NME is 4 years old


Although NME is becoming better known lately, the framework is 4 years  
old. Development hasn't stopped yet, why should it tomorrow?


  3.) Exit: Adobe AIR


If you want, you can compile to Flash (and subsequently to AIR) from NME.  
That means that any advancement Adobe might make with AIR in the future is  
still available as an option. I know at least one developer who publishes  
his NME game to AIR in order to publish for the BlackBerry Playbook, which  
uses AIR for its applications.


  4.) Exit: Actionscript 3


If a business decides to switch to Actionscript 3 instead of Haxe, they  
should be able to do so quickly. I spent 4 months on an isometric game  
engine in Haxe, then ported to AS3 in less than a day at my employer's  
request.


  5.) Exit: C++, Java and Objective-C


When you publish for one of NME's targets, it generates the source code  
before compiling. This means that you still have the source to your  
program. If you are not interested in the Actionscript 3 approach, and  
instead want a native C-based application, you would have ways of forking  
and writing as a strictly native application


  6.) Not as complex as you think


The install tool for NME is written in Haxe, and compiled for Neko. If  
something changes in the packaging or publishing for a current target, it  
is not terribly difficult to maintain. Similarly, once you get past the  
CFFI bridge between Haxe and C++, the code for NME is pretty  
straightforward. A normal C++ developer should be able to understand most  
of the code. Many game companies invest in their own build tools. It would  
not be difficult to work with NME, and any company that does so would not  
have to share the code



I am excited for NME, and hope that anyone who is interested in making  
changes would share those with us. "As you have received freely, freely  
give..."



On Tue, 11 Oct 2011 15:55:39 -0700, Michael Cann <[hidden email]>  
wrote:

> There is alot of talk about multi-platform development at the moment. I
> really like HaXe and NME and I want to push for its use at the company I
> work for. Everyone I talk to and present to agree its thats a great  
> platform
> and got a lot going for it.
>
> The one thing however that everyone mentions and I struggle to have an
> answer for is the one thing that I believe is preventing widespread haXe  
> /
> NME adoption. That is that what happens if the main contributors to haXe  
> or
> NME leave or stop contributing, what happens then?
>
> For a while it would continue on fine but if Adobe or Apple change the
> platform or build process then everything could break (for NME that is).
>
> One answer may be that the developers within the company continue to
> maintain the library however this requires rather indepth knowledge and  
> is
> dependent on those employees from not leaving. Another perceived  
> negative by
> the employer is "why maintain a project that may benefit the  
> competition?".
>
> Is this just a general problem associated with building products on top  
> of
> open-source projects?
>
> P.S. I was going to post this on the NME forum but I guess its a question
> that could be targeted (perhaps to a lesser degree) to haXe as a whole  
> too.

--
haXe - an open source web programming language
http://haxe.org



--
haXe - an open source web programming language
http://haxe.org
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Re: [NME] The one great worry...

Nicolas Cannasse
In reply to this post by Michael Cann
Le 12/10/2011 00:55, Michael Cann a écrit :
> There is alot of talk about multi-platform development at the moment. I
> really like HaXe and NME and I want to push for its use at the company I
> work for. Everyone I talk to and present to agree its thats a great
> platform and got a lot going for it.
>
> The one thing however that everyone mentions and I struggle to have an
> answer for is the one thing that I believe is preventing widespread haXe
> / NME adoption. That is that what happens if the main contributors to
> haXe or NME leave or stop contributing, what happens then?

Yes, I agree that's a common question that we need to address both in
practice and in terms of marketing/communication.

In practice there's already a lot of contributors to both haXe compiler
and NME library, so it's no longer like it's one-person job. haXe
started in 2005, soon six years ago (see http://haxe.org/com/news) and
has been gaining more and more momentum with time, so no reason to stop
either now.

But telling that is (sadly) not enough to convince people. We need to
present haXe as something which is less tied to a few persons in
particular, because that's (sadly) the kind of thing that frighten
companies from using it.

I've been thinking for a long time to create some kind of haXe
foundation. Will definitely give it more thoughts in the upcoming months.

Best,
Nicolas

--
haXe - an open source web programming language
http://haxe.org
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Re: [NME] The one great worry...

Michael Cann
In reply to this post by Jason Foster
Hi Joshual & Jason,

Thanks for those points, they should give me more ammo when the time comes :)

Mike

On 12 October 2011 00:58, Jason Foster <[hidden email]> wrote:
Most people get into developing apps in order to eat. My budding company
invested a substantial amount of time porting a sluggish, bulky AS3/Flex
project to haXe, while learning the language and its idiosyncrasies on the
fly.  The end result was a success - a commercially viable product that just
wasn't feasible with AS3. If/when there are some profits, I would love to
invest some of it back into haXe and FlashDevelop.  The whole ecosphere
developing around Haxe is amazing!  The next goal for our company (which is
still pre-market) is to take the application and target JS via NME, and have
a marketable app that can literally run on a billion Internet-connected
devices.

I guess what I'm getting at, is what options are there to support haXe
financially?  The philosophy that haXe is open source, volunteer and
community supported has worked very well so far, but at this point I think
there needs to be a commercial support option. The amazing work by the key
people and other contributors needs to be supported with cold hard cash.

Just my two bits.

Regards,

Jason Foster

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email]
[mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Joshua Granick
Sent: Tuesday, October 11, 2011 4:22 PM
To: The haXe compiler list
Subject: Re: [haXe] [NME] The one great worry...

I do not think there is perfect answer for this question, regarding any
open-source project.


 1.) NME relies on Haxe


If there is concern that development could halt on NME, do know that Flash
compilation (especially) is handled by the Haxe compiler. Historically,
Haxe has been very fast to support new Flash Player features, sometimes
faster than the Adobe Flex SDK.


 2.) NME is 4 years old


Although NME is becoming better known lately, the framework is 4 years
old. Development hasn't stopped yet, why should it tomorrow?


 3.) Exit: Adobe AIR


If you want, you can compile to Flash (and subsequently to AIR) from NME.
That means that any advancement Adobe might make with AIR in the future is
still available as an option. I know at least one developer who publishes
his NME game to AIR in order to publish for the BlackBerry Playbook, which
uses AIR for its applications.


 4.) Exit: Actionscript 3


If a business decides to switch to Actionscript 3 instead of Haxe, they
should be able to do so quickly. I spent 4 months on an isometric game
engine in Haxe, then ported to AS3 in less than a day at my employer's
request.


 5.) Exit: C++, Java and Objective-C


When you publish for one of NME's targets, it generates the source code
before compiling. This means that you still have the source to your
program. If you are not interested in the Actionscript 3 approach, and
instead want a native C-based application, you would have ways of forking
and writing as a strictly native application


 6.) Not as complex as you think


The install tool for NME is written in Haxe, and compiled for Neko. If
something changes in the packaging or publishing for a current target, it
is not terribly difficult to maintain. Similarly, once you get past the
CFFI bridge between Haxe and C++, the code for NME is pretty
straightforward. A normal C++ developer should be able to understand most
of the code. Many game companies invest in their own build tools. It would
not be difficult to work with NME, and any company that does so would not
have to share the code



I am excited for NME, and hope that anyone who is interested in making
changes would share those with us. "As you have received freely, freely
give..."



On Tue, 11 Oct 2011 15:55:39 -0700, Michael Cann <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> There is alot of talk about multi-platform development at the moment. I
> really like HaXe and NME and I want to push for its use at the company I
> work for. Everyone I talk to and present to agree its thats a great
> platform
> and got a lot going for it.
>
> The one thing however that everyone mentions and I struggle to have an
> answer for is the one thing that I believe is preventing widespread haXe
> /
> NME adoption. That is that what happens if the main contributors to haXe
> or
> NME leave or stop contributing, what happens then?
>
> For a while it would continue on fine but if Adobe or Apple change the
> platform or build process then everything could break (for NME that is).
>
> One answer may be that the developers within the company continue to
> maintain the library however this requires rather indepth knowledge and
> is
> dependent on those employees from not leaving. Another perceived
> negative by
> the employer is "why maintain a project that may benefit the
> competition?".
>
> Is this just a general problem associated with building products on top
> of
> open-source projects?
>
> P.S. I was going to post this on the NME forum but I guess its a question
> that could be targeted (perhaps to a lesser degree) to haXe as a whole
> too.

--
haXe - an open source web programming language
http://haxe.org



--
haXe - an open source web programming language
http://haxe.org



--
Mike Cann
http://www.mikecann.co.uk/


--
haXe - an open source web programming language
http://haxe.org
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Re: [NME] The one great worry...

Cauê W.
Michael,
It seems your company is worried about having a solid code base, that is resistant to unexpected changes that might occur over time. And I think rightfully so.
This is, though, one of the many reasons we have adopted haxe as our programming language in our company. The dominance of a programming language is a very political and timely decision. Who would thought that Java would start losing its importance a few years ago? Though with Oracle's lawsuits and bad decisions, companies and supporters are drifting away from it and it might become in a few years a very enterprise-ish language, not the widely adopted general-purpose language it once was.
And what about Adobe and AS3, which is slowly drifting away from flash and into HTML5? Or maybe if you ever choose to stick with something like Objective C and the apple products start losing importance over Android, like it is happening already? In all those cases you are left with a code base that is worth nothing, but maybe reference.

Haxe provides an unique way to deal with those changes. It was carefully and (I think) geniously crafted to be able to compile to many other languages, and since it's open source, you have the possibility to extend it to solve your own needs. That's why we started coding the Java and C# targets, and really, even though it's very scary to think about creating an haxe target, it's a million times easier than writing a whole compiler from scratch. Actually it's very easy and nice to work with that, once you get the gist of it.

Anyway, it's an open source language. This is an advantage you don't have with any closed source language. The hard work was already done, and even if its maintainers lose interest in it, anyone can take the project in and maintain it.

I hope this helps you to be able to adopt haxe on your company!
Cheers!
Cauê

2011/10/12 Michael Cann <[hidden email]>
Hi Joshual & Jason,

Thanks for those points, they should give me more ammo when the time comes :)

Mike


On 12 October 2011 00:58, Jason Foster <[hidden email]> wrote:
Most people get into developing apps in order to eat. My budding company
invested a substantial amount of time porting a sluggish, bulky AS3/Flex
project to haXe, while learning the language and its idiosyncrasies on the
fly.  The end result was a success - a commercially viable product that just
wasn't feasible with AS3. If/when there are some profits, I would love to
invest some of it back into haXe and FlashDevelop.  The whole ecosphere
developing around Haxe is amazing!  The next goal for our company (which is
still pre-market) is to take the application and target JS via NME, and have
a marketable app that can literally run on a billion Internet-connected
devices.

I guess what I'm getting at, is what options are there to support haXe
financially?  The philosophy that haXe is open source, volunteer and
community supported has worked very well so far, but at this point I think
there needs to be a commercial support option. The amazing work by the key
people and other contributors needs to be supported with cold hard cash.

Just my two bits.

Regards,

Jason Foster

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email]
[mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Joshua Granick
Sent: Tuesday, October 11, 2011 4:22 PM
To: The haXe compiler list
Subject: Re: [haXe] [NME] The one great worry...

I do not think there is perfect answer for this question, regarding any
open-source project.


 1.) NME relies on Haxe


If there is concern that development could halt on NME, do know that Flash
compilation (especially) is handled by the Haxe compiler. Historically,
Haxe has been very fast to support new Flash Player features, sometimes
faster than the Adobe Flex SDK.


 2.) NME is 4 years old


Although NME is becoming better known lately, the framework is 4 years
old. Development hasn't stopped yet, why should it tomorrow?


 3.) Exit: Adobe AIR


If you want, you can compile to Flash (and subsequently to AIR) from NME.
That means that any advancement Adobe might make with AIR in the future is
still available as an option. I know at least one developer who publishes
his NME game to AIR in order to publish for the BlackBerry Playbook, which
uses AIR for its applications.


 4.) Exit: Actionscript 3


If a business decides to switch to Actionscript 3 instead of Haxe, they
should be able to do so quickly. I spent 4 months on an isometric game
engine in Haxe, then ported to AS3 in less than a day at my employer's
request.


 5.) Exit: C++, Java and Objective-C


When you publish for one of NME's targets, it generates the source code
before compiling. This means that you still have the source to your
program. If you are not interested in the Actionscript 3 approach, and
instead want a native C-based application, you would have ways of forking
and writing as a strictly native application


 6.) Not as complex as you think


The install tool for NME is written in Haxe, and compiled for Neko. If
something changes in the packaging or publishing for a current target, it
is not terribly difficult to maintain. Similarly, once you get past the
CFFI bridge between Haxe and C++, the code for NME is pretty
straightforward. A normal C++ developer should be able to understand most
of the code. Many game companies invest in their own build tools. It would
not be difficult to work with NME, and any company that does so would not
have to share the code



I am excited for NME, and hope that anyone who is interested in making
changes would share those with us. "As you have received freely, freely
give..."



On Tue, 11 Oct 2011 15:55:39 -0700, Michael Cann <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> There is alot of talk about multi-platform development at the moment. I
> really like HaXe and NME and I want to push for its use at the company I
> work for. Everyone I talk to and present to agree its thats a great
> platform
> and got a lot going for it.
>
> The one thing however that everyone mentions and I struggle to have an
> answer for is the one thing that I believe is preventing widespread haXe
> /
> NME adoption. That is that what happens if the main contributors to haXe
> or
> NME leave or stop contributing, what happens then?
>
> For a while it would continue on fine but if Adobe or Apple change the
> platform or build process then everything could break (for NME that is).
>
> One answer may be that the developers within the company continue to
> maintain the library however this requires rather indepth knowledge and
> is
> dependent on those employees from not leaving. Another perceived
> negative by
> the employer is "why maintain a project that may benefit the
> competition?".
>
> Is this just a general problem associated with building products on top
> of
> open-source projects?
>
> P.S. I was going to post this on the NME forum but I guess its a question
> that could be targeted (perhaps to a lesser degree) to haXe as a whole
> too.

--
haXe - an open source web programming language
http://haxe.org



--
haXe - an open source web programming language
http://haxe.org




--
haXe - an open source web programming language
http://haxe.org


--
haXe - an open source web programming language
http://haxe.org
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Re: [NME] The one great worry...

Jason O'Neil-2

Well said!

I totally agree. Almost worth putting on the website in a faq  page to help alleviate people's concerns.

I reckon alot of potential users might be wondering about this, and hesitant because of this, but not all of them will take the time to ask the list like Michael has.

Anyone object to putting a page / paragraph on the website to address this? Any suggestions on where it might fit?

On Oct 12, 2011 9:32 PM, "Cauê Waneck" <[hidden email]> wrote:
Michael,
It seems your company is worried about having a solid code base, that is resistant to unexpected changes that might occur over time. And I think rightfully so.
This is, though, one of the many reasons we have adopted haxe as our programming language in our company. The dominance of a programming language is a very political and timely decision. Who would thought that Java would start losing its importance a few years ago? Though with Oracle's lawsuits and bad decisions, companies and supporters are drifting away from it and it might become in a few years a very enterprise-ish language, not the widely adopted general-purpose language it once was.
And what about Adobe and AS3, which is slowly drifting away from flash and into HTML5? Or maybe if you ever choose to stick with something like Objective C and the apple products start losing importance over Android, like it is happening already? In all those cases you are left with a code base that is worth nothing, but maybe reference.

Haxe provides an unique way to deal with those changes. It was carefully and (I think) geniously crafted to be able to compile to many other languages, and since it's open source, you have the possibility to extend it to solve your own needs. That's why we started coding the Java and C# targets, and really, even though it's very scary to think about creating an haxe target, it's a million times easier than writing a whole compiler from scratch. Actually it's very easy and nice to work with that, once you get the gist of it.

Anyway, it's an open source language. This is an advantage you don't have with any closed source language. The hard work was already done, and even if its maintainers lose interest in it, anyone can take the project in and maintain it.

I hope this helps you to be able to adopt haxe on your company!
Cheers!
Cauê

2011/10/12 Michael Cann <[hidden email]>
Hi Joshual & Jason,

Thanks for those points, they should give me more ammo when the time comes :)

Mike


On 12 October 2011 00:58, Jason Foster <[hidden email]> wrote:
Most people get into developing apps in order to eat. My budding company
invested a substantial amount of time porting a sluggish, bulky AS3/Flex
project to haXe, while learning the language and its idiosyncrasies on the
fly.  The end result was a success - a commercially viable product that just
wasn't feasible with AS3. If/when there are some profits, I would love to
invest some of it back into haXe and FlashDevelop.  The whole ecosphere
developing around Haxe is amazing!  The next goal for our company (which is
still pre-market) is to take the application and target JS via NME, and have
a marketable app that can literally run on a billion Internet-connected
devices.

I guess what I'm getting at, is what options are there to support haXe
financially?  The philosophy that haXe is open source, volunteer and
community supported has worked very well so far, but at this point I think
there needs to be a commercial support option. The amazing work by the key
people and other contributors needs to be supported with cold hard cash.

Just my two bits.

Regards,

Jason Foster

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email]
[mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Joshua Granick
Sent: Tuesday, October 11, 2011 4:22 PM
To: The haXe compiler list
Subject: Re: [haXe] [NME] The one great worry...

I do not think there is perfect answer for this question, regarding any
open-source project.


 1.) NME relies on Haxe


If there is concern that development could halt on NME, do know that Flash
compilation (especially) is handled by the Haxe compiler. Historically,
Haxe has been very fast to support new Flash Player features, sometimes
faster than the Adobe Flex SDK.


 2.) NME is 4 years old


Although NME is becoming better known lately, the framework is 4 years
old. Development hasn't stopped yet, why should it tomorrow?


 3.) Exit: Adobe AIR


If you want, you can compile to Flash (and subsequently to AIR) from NME.
That means that any advancement Adobe might make with AIR in the future is
still available as an option. I know at least one developer who publishes
his NME game to AIR in order to publish for the BlackBerry Playbook, which
uses AIR for its applications.


 4.) Exit: Actionscript 3


If a business decides to switch to Actionscript 3 instead of Haxe, they
should be able to do so quickly. I spent 4 months on an isometric game
engine in Haxe, then ported to AS3 in less than a day at my employer's
request.


 5.) Exit: C++, Java and Objective-C


When you publish for one of NME's targets, it generates the source code
before compiling. This means that you still have the source to your
program. If you are not interested in the Actionscript 3 approach, and
instead want a native C-based application, you would have ways of forking
and writing as a strictly native application


 6.) Not as complex as you think


The install tool for NME is written in Haxe, and compiled for Neko. If
something changes in the packaging or publishing for a current target, it
is not terribly difficult to maintain. Similarly, once you get past the
CFFI bridge between Haxe and C++, the code for NME is pretty
straightforward. A normal C++ developer should be able to understand most
of the code. Many game companies invest in their own build tools. It would
not be difficult to work with NME, and any company that does so would not
have to share the code



I am excited for NME, and hope that anyone who is interested in making
changes would share those with us. "As you have received freely, freely
give..."



On Tue, 11 Oct 2011 15:55:39 -0700, Michael Cann <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> There is alot of talk about multi-platform development at the moment. I
> really like HaXe and NME and I want to push for its use at the company I
> work for. Everyone I talk to and present to agree its thats a great
> platform
> and got a lot going for it.
>
> The one thing however that everyone mentions and I struggle to have an
> answer for is the one thing that I believe is preventing widespread haXe
> /
> NME adoption. That is that what happens if the main contributors to haXe
> or
> NME leave or stop contributing, what happens then?
>
> For a while it would continue on fine but if Adobe or Apple change the
> platform or build process then everything could break (for NME that is).
>
> One answer may be that the developers within the company continue to
> maintain the library however this requires rather indepth knowledge and
> is
> dependent on those employees from not leaving. Another perceived
> negative by
> the employer is "why maintain a project that may benefit the
> competition?".
>
> Is this just a general problem associated with building products on top
> of
> open-source projects?
>
> P.S. I was going to post this on the NME forum but I guess its a question
> that could be targeted (perhaps to a lesser degree) to haXe as a whole
> too.

--
haXe - an open source web programming language
http://haxe.org



--
haXe - an open source web programming language
http://haxe.org




--
haXe - an open source web programming language
http://haxe.org


--
haXe - an open source web programming language
http://haxe.org

--
haXe - an open source web programming language
http://haxe.org
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Re: [NME] The one great worry...

Gamehaxe
In reply to this post by Cauê W.
Hi,
Well, I think the concerns are somewhat legitimate.
While neither haxe nor NME is currently limited to a single
person, the total number of people who are experts is limited.
So there is a greater-than-zero probability that these projects will
get abandoned (as is in fact true for almost every project).
So you should think about how a worst-case scenario would play out.
Lets say that the current contributors decide to enter a lottery,
together, win millions and retire to the beach.
Then you are stuck with the current state of the code.

This may be a pain, but it is not a disaster. the haxe compiler
has been working solidly for many years.  So although you may
not get updates, and may have to find work-arounds for a few
minor bugs, your code base will continue to compile for years to come.
NME could stop tracking new targets - but this is not a disaster
either - you can still maintain existing projects.  At this stage
yo may even decide to fork or take over nme to add your required features.
You also have the option of dumping your code to as3 and continuing
with, say, air development.

It is not like a DRM server gets switched off and suddenly your
projects die.  The beauty of open-source is that there will always
be options.

NME also has an increasing number of a active contributers and I think
is approaching the critical mass where enough people are happy with
the code base that patches can come from the community pretty quickly.
I don't think the haxe compiler is in quite the same boat, but
the compiler is supported by a full-time employee, so it seems like
a safe bet.

So, like any technology, you have to ask yourself, do you feel lucky?

Hugh

--
haXe - an open source web programming language
http://haxe.org
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Re: Re: [haXe] [NME] The one great worry...

Rob Fell
In reply to this post by Cauê W.

Hi Michael, imo ...

Technologists invest in logic
Suits invest in portfolio.

So, making a compelling investment / adoption pitch needs logic (as seen
in abundance elsewhere on this thread) but only after showcasing a
portfolio of companies / products who are profiting from adoption of
haXe / NME / Monkey Tennis.

Thus, perhaps obviously, all "great worries" go away because they can be
fixed on a purely commercial market rate basis (e.g. hire or train a
guru at the cost of diminished profitability).  Whereas if no such
profitable enterprises exist today, then it's arguably not a scalable or
sustainable technology (yet), and using it has significant early adopter
risks.

Perhaps there are already hundreds of profitable enterprises using this
technology that don't reciprocate credit for fear of "benefiting the
competition" through evidence of their own success?

Best regards, Rob





On 11:59 AM, Cauê Waneck wrote:

> Michael,
> It seems your company is worried about having a solid code base, that
> is resistant to unexpected changes that might occur over time. And I
> think rightfully so.
> This is, though, one of the many reasons we have adopted haxe as our
> programming language in our company. The dominance of a programming
> language is a very political and timely decision. Who would thought
> that Java would start losing its importance a few years ago? Though
> with Oracle's lawsuits and bad decisions, companies and supporters are
> drifting away from it and it might become in a few years a very
> enterprise-ish language, not the widely adopted general-purpose
> language it once was.
> And what about Adobe and AS3, which is slowly drifting away from flash
> and into HTML5? Or maybe if you ever choose to stick with something
> like Objective C and the apple products start losing importance over
> Android, like it is happening already? In all those cases you are left
> with a code base that is worth nothing, but maybe reference.
>
> Haxe provides an unique way to deal with those changes. It was
> carefully and (I think) geniously crafted to be able to compile to
> many other languages, and since it's open source, you have the
> possibility to extend it to solve your own needs. That's why we
> started coding the Java and C# targets, and really, even though it's
> very scary to think about creating an haxe target, it's a million
> times easier than writing a whole compiler from scratch. Actually it's
> very easy and nice to work with that, once you get the gist of it.
>
> Anyway, it's an open source language. This is an advantage you don't
> have with any closed source language. The hard work was already done,
> and even if its maintainers lose interest in it, anyone can take the
> project in and maintain it.
>
> I hope this helps you to be able to adopt haxe on your company!
> Cheers!
> Cauê
>
> 2011/10/12 Michael Cann <[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>>
>
>     Hi Joshual & Jason,
>
>     Thanks for those points, they should give me more ammo when the
>     time comes :)
>
>     Mike
>
>
>     On 12 October 2011 00:58, Jason Foster <[hidden email]
>     <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:
>
>         Most people get into developing apps in order to eat. My
>         budding company
>         invested a substantial amount of time porting a sluggish,
>         bulky AS3/Flex
>         project to haXe, while learning the language and its
>         idiosyncrasies on the
>         fly.  The end result was a success - a commercially viable
>         product that just
>         wasn't feasible with AS3. If/when there are some profits, I
>         would love to
>         invest some of it back into haXe and FlashDevelop.  The whole
>         ecosphere
>         developing around Haxe is amazing!  The next goal for our
>         company (which is
>         still pre-market) is to take the application and target JS via
>         NME, and have
>         a marketable app that can literally run on a billion
>         Internet-connected
>         devices.
>
>         I guess what I'm getting at, is what options are there to
>         support haXe
>         financially?  The philosophy that haXe is open source,
>         volunteer and
>         community supported has worked very well so far, but at this
>         point I think
>         there needs to be a commercial support option. The amazing
>         work by the key
>         people and other contributors needs to be supported with cold
>         hard cash.
>
>         Just my two bits.
>
>         Regards,
>
>         Jason Foster
>
>         -----Original Message-----
>         From: [hidden email]
>         <mailto:[hidden email]>
>         [mailto:[hidden email]
>         <mailto:[hidden email]>] On Behalf Of
>         Joshua Granick
>         Sent: Tuesday, October 11, 2011 4:22 PM
>         To: The haXe compiler list
>         Subject: Re: [haXe] [NME] The one great worry...
>
>         I do not think there is perfect answer for this question,
>         regarding any
>         open-source project.
>
>
>          1.) NME relies on Haxe
>
>
>         If there is concern that development could halt on NME, do
>         know that Flash
>         compilation (especially) is handled by the Haxe compiler.
>         Historically,
>         Haxe has been very fast to support new Flash Player features,
>         sometimes
>         faster than the Adobe Flex SDK.
>
>
>          2.) NME is 4 years old
>
>
>         Although NME is becoming better known lately, the framework is
>         4 years
>         old. Development hasn't stopped yet, why should it tomorrow?
>
>
>          3.) Exit: Adobe AIR
>
>
>         If you want, you can compile to Flash (and subsequently to
>         AIR) from NME.
>         That means that any advancement Adobe might make with AIR in
>         the future is
>         still available as an option. I know at least one developer
>         who publishes
>         his NME game to AIR in order to publish for the BlackBerry
>         Playbook, which
>         uses AIR for its applications.
>
>
>          4.) Exit: Actionscript 3
>
>
>         If a business decides to switch to Actionscript 3 instead of
>         Haxe, they
>         should be able to do so quickly. I spent 4 months on an
>         isometric game
>         engine in Haxe, then ported to AS3 in less than a day at my
>         employer's
>         request.
>
>
>          5.) Exit: C++, Java and Objective-C
>
>
>         When you publish for one of NME's targets, it generates the
>         source code
>         before compiling. This means that you still have the source to
>         your
>         program. If you are not interested in the Actionscript 3
>         approach, and
>         instead want a native C-based application, you would have ways
>         of forking
>         and writing as a strictly native application
>
>
>          6.) Not as complex as you think
>
>
>         The install tool for NME is written in Haxe, and compiled for
>         Neko. If
>         something changes in the packaging or publishing for a current
>         target, it
>         is not terribly difficult to maintain. Similarly, once you get
>         past the
>         CFFI bridge between Haxe and C++, the code for NME is pretty
>         straightforward. A normal C++ developer should be able to
>         understand most
>         of the code. Many game companies invest in their own build
>         tools. It would
>         not be difficult to work with NME, and any company that does
>         so would not
>         have to share the code
>
>
>
>         I am excited for NME, and hope that anyone who is interested
>         in making
>         changes would share those with us. "As you have received
>         freely, freely
>         give..."
>
>
>
>         On Tue, 11 Oct 2011 15:55:39 -0700, Michael Cann
>         <[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>>
>         wrote:
>
>         > There is alot of talk about multi-platform development at
>         the moment. I
>         > really like HaXe and NME and I want to push for its use at
>         the company I
>         > work for. Everyone I talk to and present to agree its thats
>         a great
>         > platform
>         > and got a lot going for it.
>         >
>         > The one thing however that everyone mentions and I struggle
>         to have an
>         > answer for is the one thing that I believe is preventing
>         widespread haXe
>         > /
>         > NME adoption. That is that what happens if the main
>         contributors to haXe
>         > or
>         > NME leave or stop contributing, what happens then?
>         >
>         > For a while it would continue on fine but if Adobe or Apple
>         change the
>         > platform or build process then everything could break (for
>         NME that is).
>         >
>         > One answer may be that the developers within the company
>         continue to
>         > maintain the library however this requires rather indepth
>         knowledge and
>         > is
>         > dependent on those employees from not leaving. Another perceived
>         > negative by
>         > the employer is "why maintain a project that may benefit the
>         > competition?".
>         >
>         > Is this just a general problem associated with building
>         products on top
>         > of
>         > open-source projects?
>         >
>         > P.S. I was going to post this on the NME forum but I guess
>         its a question
>         > that could be targeted (perhaps to a lesser degree) to haXe
>         as a whole
>         > too.
>
>         --
>         haXe - an open source web programming language
>         http://haxe.org
>
>
>
>         --
>         haXe - an open source web programming language
>         http://haxe.org
>
>
>
>
>     --
>     *Mike Cann*
>     http://www.mikecann.co.uk/
>     @mikeysee <http://www.twitter.com/mikeysee>
>
>
>     --
>     haXe - an open source web programming language
>     http://haxe.org
>
>
>

--
haXe - an open source web programming language
http://haxe.org
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Re: [NME] The one great worry...

TjD__
In reply to this post by singmajesty
singmajesty wrote
I do not think there is perfect answer for this question, regarding any  
open-source project.

  1.) NME relies on Haxe
  2.) NME is 4 years old
  3.) Exit: Adobe AIR
  4.) Exit: Actionscript 3
  5.) Exit: C++, Java and Objective-C
  6.) Not as complex as you think


The install tool for NME is written in Haxe, and compiled for Neko. If  
something changes in the packaging or publishing for a current target, it  
is not terribly difficult to maintain. Similarly, once you get past the  
CFFI bridge between Haxe and C++, the code for NME is pretty  
straightforward. A normal C++ developer should be able to understand most  
of the code. Many game companies invest in their own build tools. It would  
not be difficult to work with NME, and any company that does so would not  
have to share the code
</snip>
Allow me to disagree on point 6, the binaries for NME in svn for Mac have not been updated since at least september 21, compiling them has been left as an exercise for the enthousiast ( see my Font thread ) and trust me when I say this seems very complex, the error messages I am getting are so obscure that I get maybe 3 hits on google for those error messages.

I think the building of binaries needs to be much more stable and documented ( like needing to download xcode 3.0 in order to build those binaries under Lion etc. etc. ). I wonder if anybody besides you can actually compile NME for Mac on Lion.

T.


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Re: [NME] The one great worry...

singmajesty
I'm sorry for the trouble.

Have you tried the NME 3.1 Beta that was recently released? It includes  
up-to-date binaries for Windows, Mac, Linux, iOS, webOS and Android

We will probably be moving to more beta releases so that most people do  
not need to rely on SVN. When I make a build for OS X, I use XCode 4 on  
Snow Leopard. In my .hxcpp_config.xml file, I have the "use current SDK"  
flag for Mac builds uncommented, so it uses the default Mac SDK rather  
than trying to use 10.5



On Wed, 12 Oct 2011 16:06:28 -0700, TjD__ <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> singmajesty wrote:
>>
>> I do not think there is perfect answer for this question, regarding any
>> open-source project.
>>
>>   1.) NME relies on Haxe
>>   2.) NME is 4 years old
>>   3.) Exit: Adobe AIR
>>   4.) Exit: Actionscript 3
>>   5.) Exit: C++, Java and Objective-C
>>   6.) Not as complex as you think
>>
>>
>> The install tool for NME is written in Haxe, and compiled for Neko. If
>> something changes in the packaging or publishing for a current target,  
>> it
>> is not terribly difficult to maintain. Similarly, once you get past the
>> CFFI bridge between Haxe and C++, the code for NME is pretty
>> straightforward. A normal C++ developer should be able to understand  
>> most
>> of the code. Many game companies invest in their own build tools. It  
>> would
>> not be difficult to work with NME, and any company that does so would  
>> not
>> have to share the code
>> </snip>
>>
>
> Allow me to disagree on point 6, the binaries for NME in svn for Mac have
> not been updated since at least september 21, compiling them has been  
> left
> as an exercise for the enthousiast ( see my Font thread ) and trust me  
> when
> I say this seems very complex, the error messages I am getting are so
> obscure that I get maybe 3 hits on google for those error messages.
>
> I think the building of binaries needs to be much more stable and  
> documented
> ( like needing to download xcode 3.0 in order to build those binaries  
> under
> Lion etc. etc. ). I wonder if anybody besides you can actually compile  
> NME
> for Mac on Lion.
>
> T.
>
>
>
>
> --
> View this message in context:  
> http://haxe.1354130.n2.nabble.com/NME-The-one-great-worry-tp6882926p6887066.html
> Sent from the Haxe mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

--
haXe - an open source web programming language
http://haxe.org
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Re: [NME] The one great worry...

Philippe Riou
Hi all,

I should get the Lion OS soon. I'll try to run NME on it. Like Joshua, I'm running a Snow Leopard and xcode 4 configuration and everything worked very well regarding the compilation.

I keep you posted.

Phil.

Le 13/10/2011 02:04, Joshua Granick a écrit :
I'm sorry for the trouble.

Have you tried the NME 3.1 Beta that was recently released? It includes up-to-date binaries for Windows, Mac, Linux, iOS, webOS and Android

We will probably be moving to more beta releases so that most people do not need to rely on SVN. When I make a build for OS X, I use XCode 4 on Snow Leopard. In my .hxcpp_config.xml file, I have the "use current SDK" flag for Mac builds uncommented, so it uses the default Mac SDK rather than trying to use 10.5



On Wed, 12 Oct 2011 16:06:28 -0700, TjD__ [hidden email] wrote:


singmajesty wrote:

I do not think there is perfect answer for this question, regarding any
open-source project.

  1.) NME relies on Haxe
  2.) NME is 4 years old
  3.) Exit: Adobe AIR
  4.) Exit: Actionscript 3
  5.) Exit: C++, Java and Objective-C
  6.) Not as complex as you think


The install tool for NME is written in Haxe, and compiled for Neko. If
something changes in the packaging or publishing for a current target, it
is not terribly difficult to maintain. Similarly, once you get past the
CFFI bridge between Haxe and C++, the code for NME is pretty
straightforward. A normal C++ developer should be able to understand most
of the code. Many game companies invest in their own build tools. It would
not be difficult to work with NME, and any company that does so would not
have to share the code
</snip>


Allow me to disagree on point 6, the binaries for NME in svn for Mac have
not been updated since at least september 21, compiling them has been left
as an exercise for the enthousiast ( see my Font thread ) and trust me when
I say this seems very complex, the error messages I am getting are so
obscure that I get maybe 3 hits on google for those error messages.

I think the building of binaries needs to be much more stable and documented
( like needing to download xcode 3.0 in order to build those binaries under
Lion etc. etc. ). I wonder if anybody besides you can actually compile NME
for Mac on Lion.

T.




--
View this message in context: http://haxe.1354130.n2.nabble.com/NME-The-one-great-worry-tp6882926p6887066.html
Sent from the Haxe mailing list archive at Nabble.com.


--

--
haXe - an open source web programming language
http://haxe.org
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Re: [NME] The one great worry...

Michael Cann
Thanks everyone for those points, ill take as much ammo as I can get.

As for NME on lion, I can confirm that you need to use the beta version of NME to be able to compile to iOS. The mac target doesnt work however, I believe this is a hxcpp issue tho, there are some mailing list posts suggesting how to fix it, I just need to spend some more time to hack around it.

On 13 October 2011 08:33, Philippe Riou <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hi all,

I should get the Lion OS soon. I'll try to run NME on it. Like Joshua, I'm running a Snow Leopard and xcode 4 configuration and everything worked very well regarding the compilation.

I keep you posted.

Phil.

Le 13/10/2011 02:04, Joshua Granick a écrit :
I'm sorry for the trouble.

Have you tried the NME 3.1 Beta that was recently released? It includes up-to-date binaries for Windows, Mac, Linux, iOS, webOS and Android

We will probably be moving to more beta releases so that most people do not need to rely on SVN. When I make a build for OS X, I use XCode 4 on Snow Leopard. In my .hxcpp_config.xml file, I have the "use current SDK" flag for Mac builds uncommented, so it uses the default Mac SDK rather than trying to use 10.5



On Wed, 12 Oct 2011 16:06:28 -0700, TjD__ [hidden email] wrote:


singmajesty wrote:

I do not think there is perfect answer for this question, regarding any
open-source project.

  1.) NME relies on Haxe
  2.) NME is 4 years old
  3.) Exit: Adobe AIR
  4.) Exit: Actionscript 3
  5.) Exit: C++, Java and Objective-C
  6.) Not as complex as you think


The install tool for NME is written in Haxe, and compiled for Neko. If
something changes in the packaging or publishing for a current target, it
is not terribly difficult to maintain. Similarly, once you get past the
CFFI bridge between Haxe and C++, the code for NME is pretty
straightforward. A normal C++ developer should be able to understand most
of the code. Many game companies invest in their own build tools. It would
not be difficult to work with NME, and any company that does so would not
have to share the code
</snip>


Allow me to disagree on point 6, the binaries for NME in svn for Mac have
not been updated since at least september 21, compiling them has been left
as an exercise for the enthousiast ( see my Font thread ) and trust me when
I say this seems very complex, the error messages I am getting are so
obscure that I get maybe 3 hits on google for those error messages.

I think the building of binaries needs to be much more stable and documented
( like needing to download xcode 3.0 in order to build those binaries under
Lion etc. etc. ). I wonder if anybody besides you can actually compile NME
for Mac on Lion.

T.




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Mike Cann
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haXe - an open source web programming language
http://haxe.org