Any thoughts on HTML5 vs Flash ?

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Any thoughts on HTML5 vs Flash ?

Martijn Loots
Hi all.

I did not discover a method yet to create compiled HTML5
canvas scripts, so it seems not a real contender as a full
fledged Flash replacement.

Are there any thoughts here w.r.t. HTML5 and haXe..?

Grtz,
--
-Martijn    @..@    ( Martijn Loots       -  Hengelo  [NL] )
-          (`--')   ( martijn<@>cosix.com -  www.cosix.com )
-         ( >__< )  ----------------------------------------
-         ^^^  ^^^  (   Netwerken, Security, Open Source   )

--
haXe - an open source web programming language
http://haxe.org
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Re: Any thoughts on HTML5 vs Flash ?

Bruno Garcia
Canvas is very low level compared to the Flash renderer. If you need a
scene graph or animation system you have to roll them yourself. I've
been developing a game engine that supplies some of these things at
http://github.com/aduros/easel .

I think Haxe (compared to pure JS) is a no brainer for building complex
HTML5 games. HTML5 itself though is not ready to replace Flash. Unless
you're writing mobile apps.

Bruno

On 04/29/2010 03:58 PM, Martijn Loots wrote:
> Hi all.
>
> I did not discover a method yet to create compiled HTML5
> canvas scripts, so it seems not a real contender as a full
> fledged Flash replacement.
>
> Are there any thoughts here w.r.t. HTML5 and haXe..?
>
> Grtz,


--
haXe - an open source web programming language
http://haxe.org
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Re: Any thoughts on HTML5 vs Flash ?

Jarrad Hope
In reply to this post by Martijn Loots
for now i'd keep up to date with html5/javascript but it runs like ass.

I'll consider it when;
- I see chrome experiments running nice on iphone/android and internet explorer 7+
- Theres some nice wrapper libraries that take care of all the browser quirks,
- AND they got the whole video codec issue sorted.

But by the time all thats sorted I'll already be using webgl cause man, thats where its at!
I don't really see the need for canvas when theres flash and webgl will probably be out in browser releases in a year or so.
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Re: Any thoughts on HTML5 vs Flash ?

edA-qa mort-ora-y
In reply to this post by Martijn Loots
Martijn Loots wrote:
> Are there any thoughts here w.r.t. HTML5 and haXe..?

HTML, JS, COM, CSS, Canvas are all painfully slow when compared to
Flash. Even the most basic animations run poorly. The model for HTML/CSS
is just too complex to render quickly -- even assuming the JS engines
can be made fast enough to not be the bottleneck.

Perhaps a browser will come along that can do Canvas/JS very well, and
if you leave out all CSS/HTML aspects you might get that going well
enough. But then Flash will still have a higher level API capable of
doing more things.

For very simple apps it is a good replacement. For example all those
video players out there can easily be done in HTML5. Utility type things
like file uploads, calculators, etc. can also be done easily (so it
seems). Yet Flash will still be the sure bet for years to come when
dealing with animation and interaction.

--
edA-qa mort-ora-y
-- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- --

BigTPoker uses haXe and DHLIB
        http://BigTPoker.com/?source=haxe-list

The dis-Emi-A haXe Library
        http://wiki.disemia.com/HaXe
       
A full set of tools, classes, and support facilities aimed at
simplifying and expediting game creation in Flash 9.

-- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- --
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http://haxe.org

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Re: Any thoughts on HTML5 vs Flash ?

John A. De Goes
In reply to this post by Martijn Loots

Supposedly Apple may be working on a standards-compliant "Flash killer" authoring tool.

Until then, HTML5 cannot be a Flash killer because there is no high-level creative authoring tool.

But technically, JavaScript performance is slowly surpassing Flash and the standards are moving towards full 2D/3D hardware acceleration for Canvas 2D and OpenGL (which, given Adobe's pace, is not something you'll see in Flash anytime soon).

Regards,

John

On Apr 29, 2010, at 3:58 PM, Martijn Loots wrote:

> Hi all.
>
> I did not discover a method yet to create compiled HTML5
> canvas scripts, so it seems not a real contender as a full
> fledged Flash replacement.
>
> Are there any thoughts here w.r.t. HTML5 and haXe..?
>
> Grtz,
> --
> -Martijn    @..@    ( Martijn Loots       -  Hengelo  [NL] )
> -          (`--')   ( martijn<@>cosix.com -  www.cosix.com )
> -         ( >__< )  ----------------------------------------
> -         ^^^  ^^^  (   Netwerken, Security, Open Source   )
>
> --
> haXe - an open source web programming language
> http://haxe.org


--
haXe - an open source web programming language
http://haxe.org
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Re: Any thoughts on HTML5 vs Flash ?

wvxvw
In reply to this post by Martijn Loots
I wouldn't call -webkit-something-something CSS exactly standard compliant :) It just looks like Apple now is having the same ambition as IE had 10 years ago. What I mean is, do you imagine FF or Opera suddenly implementing those CSS with that prefix? :D What about IE?
Sorry, I just don't believe in big corporations altruistic moves, and I don't believe in the future of HTML as whole. For me it relates to the modern world like console applications to GUI apps. There are very cool console apps (me rediscovers VIM!), but they don't belong to the world of most regular computer users...
Anyway, not to start another flame war. That's just my opinion, and nothing more, no need to agree with it :)

Best.

Oleg

--
haXe - an open source web programming language
http://haxe.org
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Re: Any thoughts on HTML5 vs Flash ?

Chris Hecker
In reply to this post by John A. De Goes

Adobe would be foolish to not have a skunkworks project to have the
Flash authoring environment output "html5" just in case.  Of course,
Adobe is foolish, so hey.

Chris



John A. De Goes wrote:

> Supposedly Apple may be working on a standards-compliant "Flash killer" authoring tool.
>
> Until then, HTML5 cannot be a Flash killer because there is no high-level creative authoring tool.
>
> But technically, JavaScript performance is slowly surpassing Flash and the standards are moving towards full 2D/3D hardware acceleration for Canvas 2D and OpenGL (which, given Adobe's pace, is not something you'll see in Flash anytime soon).
>
> Regards,
>
> John
>
> On Apr 29, 2010, at 3:58 PM, Martijn Loots wrote:
>
>> Hi all.
>>
>> I did not discover a method yet to create compiled HTML5
>> canvas scripts, so it seems not a real contender as a full
>> fledged Flash replacement.
>>
>> Are there any thoughts here w.r.t. HTML5 and haXe..?
>>
>> Grtz,
>> --
>> -Martijn    @..@    ( Martijn Loots       -  Hengelo  [NL] )
>> -          (`--')   ( martijn<@>cosix.com -  www.cosix.com )
>> -         ( >__< )  ----------------------------------------
>> -         ^^^  ^^^  (   Netwerken, Security, Open Source   )
>>
>> --
>> haXe - an open source web programming language
>> http://haxe.org
>
>

--
haXe - an open source web programming language
http://haxe.org
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Re: Any thoughts on HTML5 vs Flash ?

Yanis Benson
Just random link:
http://www.pocket-lint.com/news/32940/adobe-pledges-best-html5-tools .

Regardless of that, it's kinda hard to call Adobe foolish.

On 05/10/2010 08:34 PM, Chris Hecker wrote:

>
> Adobe would be foolish to not have a skunkworks project to have the
> Flash authoring environment output "html5" just in case.  Of course,
> Adobe is foolish, so hey.
>
> Chris
>
>
>
> John A. De Goes wrote:
>> Supposedly Apple may be working on a standards-compliant "Flash
>> killer" authoring tool.
>>
>> Until then, HTML5 cannot be a Flash killer because there is no
>> high-level creative authoring tool.
>> But technically, JavaScript performance is slowly surpassing Flash
>> and the standards are moving towards full 2D/3D hardware acceleration
>> for Canvas 2D and OpenGL (which, given Adobe's pace, is not something
>> you'll see in Flash anytime soon).
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> John
>> On Apr 29, 2010, at 3:58 PM, Martijn Loots wrote:
>>
>>> Hi all.
>>>
>>> I did not discover a method yet to create compiled HTML5
>>> canvas scripts, so it seems not a real contender as a full
>>> fledged Flash replacement.
>>>
>>> Are there any thoughts here w.r.t. HTML5 and haXe..?
>>>
>>> Grtz,
>>> --
>>> -Martijn    @..@    ( Martijn Loots       -  Hengelo  [NL] )
>>> -          (`--')   ( martijn<@>cosix.com -  www.cosix.com )
>>> -         ( >__< )  ----------------------------------------
>>> -         ^^^  ^^^  (   Netwerken, Security, Open Source   )
>>>
>>> --
>>> haXe - an open source web programming language
>>> http://haxe.org
>>
>>
>


--
haXe - an open source web programming language
http://haxe.org
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Re: Any thoughts on HTML5 vs Flash ?

Justin Donaldson
In reply to this post by wvxvw
Yeah, I agree with Oleg.  I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for standards compliance.  Standards are great.  But, in the end, the only thing that matters is what people are actually using.  There are now 5 huge organizations/companies that have a vested interest in keeping "captive audiences" of both users and developers (Adobe,  Apple, Google, Microsoft, Mozilla).  Since they are all competing, I have to imagine that they don't go out of their way to make project code or output easily ported between their different browsers/vms/environments.  I also would imagine that they implement their own special tags/features to their code, and that it wouldn't run in different browsers/environments.

Honestly, this situation is one of the main reasons we're all interested in haXe in the first place, right? :)

-Justin




On Mon, May 10, 2010 at 12:13 PM, Oleg Sivokon <[hidden email]> wrote:
I wouldn't call -webkit-something-something CSS exactly standard compliant :) It just looks like Apple now is having the same ambition as IE had 10 years ago. What I mean is, do you imagine FF or Opera suddenly implementing those CSS with that prefix? :D What about IE?
Sorry, I just don't believe in big corporations altruistic moves, and I don't believe in the future of HTML as whole. For me it relates to the modern world like console applications to GUI apps. There are very cool console apps (me rediscovers VIM!), but they don't belong to the world of most regular computer users...
Anyway, not to start another flame war. That's just my opinion, and nothing more, no need to agree with it :)

Best.

Oleg

--
haXe - an open source web programming language
http://haxe.org



--
Justin Donaldson
PhD Candidate, Informatics
Indiana University
http://www.scwn.net
aim: iujjd
twitter: jjdonald

--
haXe - an open source web programming language
http://haxe.org
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Re: Any thoughts on HTML5 vs Flash ?

Daniel Wasilewski
In reply to this post by Chris Hecker
Yea, seems to me that there is no way to escape this war :)

take a look here
http://www.readwriteweb.com/archives/does_html5_really_beat_flash_surprising_results_of_new_tests.php
Or probably most of you already know this.

Clearly Apple slowing down flash performance on their platform.
And most of this discussions Flash vs HTML missing one point.
Flash is not about video only.

Couple of days ago some experienced developers had conversation about this:
I will copy and paste very crucial moment from this conversation.
maemo.org forum regarding to Flash on mobile devices especially n900 in this case.

Guy 1
I think if any one of you would put a watt-meter on your computer when looking at flash enabled pages it would scare you.
And GPU acceleration does not help the watt usage.
Flash can be good for some things. But developers should make sure to have a timeout - so after x min of inactivity the animation stops or webbrowser window out of focus - then all flash
On my notebook (QX9300 based quad core) accidentally leaving the browser on a flash enabled pages decreases battery time by anywhere from 30-60% in Google Chrome and IE.
So what will that do to your true multitasking N900 handset?
On my 6 core i980 - wattage goes from 120watt to 190 watt when browser is on a page with flash adverts only - and that is with GPU acceleration.
So flash is not green for anyone else than Adobe....
I agree that flash is kind of unavoidable - but please developers - think about your consumers and make your apps easy as possible on the consumers power consumption.
So im in NO hurry to get better flash or even have flash on a mobile device like N900 that already suffers from bad battery life.
should stop.
 
Guy 2

Originally Posted by Guy 1
I think if any one of you would put a watt-meter on your computer when looking at flash enabled pages it would scare you.
If you were to put a watt-meter on a HTML/JS page that does the same that a Flash page does (of course, HTML/JS combo, even in the full-HTML5 draft support flavor which doesn't even exist yet, cannot actually do many of the things Flash does routinely) you would be not scared, but terrified! No JS VM comes even close at instructions/watt performance of AVM2. Flash, when used properly, is far more efficient than any HTML/JS implementation out there.

Originally Posted by Guy 1
And GPU acceleration does not help the watt usage.
It does, and in a huge way at that. CPUs (at least in CISC flavor) are jack of all trades but master of none, GPUs can do much less than your average CPU can, but what they do, they do far more efficiently. One of those things is complex number crunching which is really important for things like video decoding, encryption and, of course, 3D rendering and composition (well, anything that has to manipulate a large number of pixels). If you leave the decoding to GPU, you would waste far less watts per video frame than if CPU would do that. Even vector gfx processing can benefit from GPU acceleration as it also boils down to complex math.

Originally Posted by Guy 1
Flash can be good for some things. But developers should make sure to have a timeout - so after x min of inactivity the animation stops or webbrowser window out of focus - then all flash should stop.
So, you are blaming the technology for the faults of developers using that technology. You can build a processor hog in pretty much any executable language, that doesn't say anything about the platform/language, but says a lot about the developer. If Flash was to disappear/become replaced by HTML5/JS combo, where do you think those bad developers would go? That's right - they'll switch to even more inefficient technology and make you a living hell of web experience - now you can at least disable the plugin and you can easily block those obtrusive adds, just wait for the day where you would need to build a CPU-hogging ad blocker that targets only specific parts of the DOM and JS - to stop CPU-hogging ads...

First time I heard this kind of argumentation :) and Guy 2 has damn right.
By the way Guy 2 is programmer who started his career in 70's.


On 10/05/2010 17:34, Chris Hecker wrote:

Adobe would be foolish to not have a skunkworks project to have the Flash authoring environment output "html5" just in case.  Of course, Adobe is foolish, so hey.

Chris



John A. De Goes wrote:
Supposedly Apple may be working on a standards-compliant "Flash killer" authoring tool.

Until then, HTML5 cannot be a Flash killer because there is no high-level creative authoring tool.
But technically, JavaScript performance is slowly surpassing Flash and the standards are moving towards full 2D/3D hardware acceleration for Canvas 2D and OpenGL (which, given Adobe's pace, is not something you'll see in Flash anytime soon).

Regards,

John
On Apr 29, 2010, at 3:58 PM, Martijn Loots wrote:

Hi all.

I did not discover a method yet to create compiled HTML5
canvas scripts, so it seems not a real contender as a full
fledged Flash replacement.

Are there any thoughts here w.r.t. HTML5 and haXe..?

Grtz,
-- 
-Martijn    @..@    ( Martijn Loots       -  Hengelo  [NL] )
-          (`--')   ( martijn<@>cosix.com -  www.cosix.com )
-         ( >__< )  ----------------------------------------
-         ^^^  ^^^  (   Netwerken, Security, Open Source   )

-- 
haXe - an open source web programming language
http://haxe.org





--
haXe - an open source web programming language
http://haxe.org
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Re: Any thoughts on HTML5 vs Flash ?

Daniel Wasilewski
In reply to this post by Yanis Benson
Thanks for "random" link :)
Here is a random video about this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iBzVGWWpZAw

> Just random link:
> http://www.pocket-lint.com/news/32940/adobe-pledges-best-html5-tools .
>
> Regardless of that, it's kinda hard to call Adobe foolish.
>
> On 05/10/2010 08:34 PM, Chris Hecker wrote:
>>
>> Adobe would be foolish to not have a skunkworks project to have the
>> Flash authoring environment output "html5" just in case.  Of course,
>> Adobe is foolish, so hey.
>>
>> Chris
>>
>>
>>
>> John A. De Goes wrote:
>>> Supposedly Apple may be working on a standards-compliant "Flash
>>> killer" authoring tool.
>>>
>>> Until then, HTML5 cannot be a Flash killer because there is no
>>> high-level creative authoring tool.
>>> But technically, JavaScript performance is slowly surpassing Flash
>>> and the standards are moving towards full 2D/3D hardware
>>> acceleration for Canvas 2D and OpenGL (which, given Adobe's pace, is
>>> not something you'll see in Flash anytime soon).
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>>
>>> John
>>> On Apr 29, 2010, at 3:58 PM, Martijn Loots wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hi all.
>>>>
>>>> I did not discover a method yet to create compiled HTML5
>>>> canvas scripts, so it seems not a real contender as a full
>>>> fledged Flash replacement.
>>>>
>>>> Are there any thoughts here w.r.t. HTML5 and haXe..?
>>>>
>>>> Grtz,
>>>> --
>>>> -Martijn    @..@    ( Martijn Loots       -  Hengelo  [NL] )
>>>> -          (`--')   ( martijn<@>cosix.com -  www.cosix.com )
>>>> -         ( >__< )  ----------------------------------------
>>>> -         ^^^  ^^^  (   Netwerken, Security, Open Source   )
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> haXe - an open source web programming language
>>>> http://haxe.org
>>>
>>>
>>
>
>


--
haXe - an open source web programming language
http://haxe.org
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Re: Any thoughts on HTML5 vs Flash ?

Baluta Cristian
In reply to this post by Daniel Wasilewski
I like the idea of stopping the flash when you don't interact with it, i'll steal it. I saw this on deezer.com, after a while everything becomes black and the sound is faded out and you have a button to get it back.


On Mon, May 10, 2010 at 7:59 PM, Daniel Wasilewski <[hidden email]> wrote:
Yea, seems to me that there is no way to escape this war :)

take a look here
http://www.readwriteweb.com/archives/does_html5_really_beat_flash_surprising_results_of_new_tests.php
Or probably most of you already know this.

Clearly Apple slowing down flash performance on their platform.
And most of this discussions Flash vs HTML missing one point.
Flash is not about video only.

Couple of days ago some experienced developers had conversation about this:
I will copy and paste very crucial moment from this conversation.
maemo.org forum regarding to Flash on mobile devices especially n900 in this case.

Guy 1
I think if any one of you would put a watt-meter on your computer when looking at flash enabled pages it would scare you.
And GPU acceleration does not help the watt usage.
Flash can be good for some things. But developers should make sure to have a timeout - so after x min of inactivity the animation stops or webbrowser window out of focus - then all flash
On my notebook (QX9300 based quad core) accidentally leaving the browser on a flash enabled pages decreases battery time by anywhere from 30-60% in Google Chrome and IE.
So what will that do to your true multitasking N900 handset?
On my 6 core i980 - wattage goes from 120watt to 190 watt when browser is on a page with flash adverts only - and that is with GPU acceleration.
So flash is not green for anyone else than Adobe....
I agree that flash is kind of unavoidable - but please developers - think about your consumers and make your apps easy as possible on the consumers power consumption.
So im in NO hurry to get better flash or even have flash on a mobile device like N900 that already suffers from bad battery life.
should stop.
 
Guy 2

Originally Posted by Guy 1
I think if any one of you would put a watt-meter on your computer when looking at flash enabled pages it would scare you.
If you were to put a watt-meter on a HTML/JS page that does the same that a Flash page does (of course, HTML/JS combo, even in the full-HTML5 draft support flavor which doesn't even exist yet, cannot actually do many of the things Flash does routinely) you would be not scared, but terrified! No JS VM comes even close at instructions/watt performance of AVM2. Flash, when used properly, is far more efficient than any HTML/JS implementation out there.

Originally Posted by Guy 1
And GPU acceleration does not help the watt usage.
It does, and in a huge way at that. CPUs (at least in CISC flavor) are jack of all trades but master of none, GPUs can do much less than your average CPU can, but what they do, they do far more efficiently. One of those things is complex number crunching which is really important for things like video decoding, encryption and, of course, 3D rendering and composition (well, anything that has to manipulate a large number of pixels). If you leave the decoding to GPU, you would waste far less watts per video frame than if CPU would do that. Even vector gfx processing can benefit from GPU acceleration as it also boils down to complex math.

Originally Posted by Guy 1
Flash can be good for some things. But developers should make sure to have a timeout - so after x min of inactivity the animation stops or webbrowser window out of focus - then all flash should stop.
So, you are blaming the technology for the faults of developers using that technology. You can build a processor hog in pretty much any executable language, that doesn't say anything about the platform/language, but says a lot about the developer. If Flash was to disappear/become replaced by HTML5/JS combo, where do you think those bad developers would go? That's right - they'll switch to even more inefficient technology and make you a living hell of web experience - now you can at least disable the plugin and you can easily block those obtrusive adds, just wait for the day where you would need to build a CPU-hogging ad blocker that targets only specific parts of the DOM and JS - to stop CPU-hogging ads...

First time I heard this kind of argumentation :) and Guy 2 has damn right.
By the way Guy 2 is programmer who started his career in 70's.



On 10/05/2010 17:34, Chris Hecker wrote:

Adobe would be foolish to not have a skunkworks project to have the Flash authoring environment output "html5" just in case.  Of course, Adobe is foolish, so hey.

Chris



John A. De Goes wrote:
Supposedly Apple may be working on a standards-compliant "Flash killer" authoring tool.

Until then, HTML5 cannot be a Flash killer because there is no high-level creative authoring tool.
But technically, JavaScript performance is slowly surpassing Flash and the standards are moving towards full 2D/3D hardware acceleration for Canvas 2D and OpenGL (which, given Adobe's pace, is not something you'll see in Flash anytime soon).

Regards,

John
On Apr 29, 2010, at 3:58 PM, Martijn Loots wrote:

Hi all.

I did not discover a method yet to create compiled HTML5
canvas scripts, so it seems not a real contender as a full
fledged Flash replacement.

Are there any thoughts here w.r.t. HTML5 and haXe..?

Grtz,
-- 
-Martijn    @..@    ( Martijn Loots       -  Hengelo  [NL] )
-          (`--')   ( martijn<@>cosix.comwww.cosix.com )
-         ( >__< )  ----------------------------------------
-         ^^^  ^^^  (   Netwerken, Security, Open Source   )

-- 
haXe - an open source web programming language
http://haxe.org





--
haXe - an open source web programming language
http://haxe.org



--
Băluță Cristian
http://ralcr.com
http://imagin.ro

--
haXe - an open source web programming language
http://haxe.org
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Re: Any thoughts on HTML5 vs Flash ?

Benjamin Dasnois
Well still that doesn't make any sense on Deezer since it should play in the background... (I usually listen to music in the background, I'm not staying focused on my player...). This is just a commercial move (to get you to look at ads) on Deezer IMHO.

On Mon, May 10, 2010 at 7:47 PM, Baluta Cristian <[hidden email]> wrote:
I like the idea of stopping the flash when you don't interact with it, i'll steal it. I saw this on deezer.com, after a while everything becomes black and the sound is faded out and you have a button to get it back.


On Mon, May 10, 2010 at 7:59 PM, Daniel Wasilewski <[hidden email]> wrote:
Yea, seems to me that there is no way to escape this war :)

take a look here
http://www.readwriteweb.com/archives/does_html5_really_beat_flash_surprising_results_of_new_tests.php
Or probably most of you already know this.

Clearly Apple slowing down flash performance on their platform.
And most of this discussions Flash vs HTML missing one point.
Flash is not about video only.

Couple of days ago some experienced developers had conversation about this:
I will copy and paste very crucial moment from this conversation.
maemo.org forum regarding to Flash on mobile devices especially n900 in this case.

Guy 1
I think if any one of you would put a watt-meter on your computer when looking at flash enabled pages it would scare you.
And GPU acceleration does not help the watt usage.
Flash can be good for some things. But developers should make sure to have a timeout - so after x min of inactivity the animation stops or webbrowser window out of focus - then all flash
On my notebook (QX9300 based quad core) accidentally leaving the browser on a flash enabled pages decreases battery time by anywhere from 30-60% in Google Chrome and IE.
So what will that do to your true multitasking N900 handset?
On my 6 core i980 - wattage goes from 120watt to 190 watt when browser is on a page with flash adverts only - and that is with GPU acceleration.
So flash is not green for anyone else than Adobe....
I agree that flash is kind of unavoidable - but please developers - think about your consumers and make your apps easy as possible on the consumers power consumption.
So im in NO hurry to get better flash or even have flash on a mobile device like N900 that already suffers from bad battery life.
should stop.
 
Guy 2

Originally Posted by Guy 1
I think if any one of you would put a watt-meter on your computer when looking at flash enabled pages it would scare you.
If you were to put a watt-meter on a HTML/JS page that does the same that a Flash page does (of course, HTML/JS combo, even in the full-HTML5 draft support flavor which doesn't even exist yet, cannot actually do many of the things Flash does routinely) you would be not scared, but terrified! No JS VM comes even close at instructions/watt performance of AVM2. Flash, when used properly, is far more efficient than any HTML/JS implementation out there.

Originally Posted by Guy 1
And GPU acceleration does not help the watt usage.
It does, and in a huge way at that. CPUs (at least in CISC flavor) are jack of all trades but master of none, GPUs can do much less than your average CPU can, but what they do, they do far more efficiently. One of those things is complex number crunching which is really important for things like video decoding, encryption and, of course, 3D rendering and composition (well, anything that has to manipulate a large number of pixels). If you leave the decoding to GPU, you would waste far less watts per video frame than if CPU would do that. Even vector gfx processing can benefit from GPU acceleration as it also boils down to complex math.

Originally Posted by Guy 1
Flash can be good for some things. But developers should make sure to have a timeout - so after x min of inactivity the animation stops or webbrowser window out of focus - then all flash should stop.
So, you are blaming the technology for the faults of developers using that technology. You can build a processor hog in pretty much any executable language, that doesn't say anything about the platform/language, but says a lot about the developer. If Flash was to disappear/become replaced by HTML5/JS combo, where do you think those bad developers would go? That's right - they'll switch to even more inefficient technology and make you a living hell of web experience - now you can at least disable the plugin and you can easily block those obtrusive adds, just wait for the day where you would need to build a CPU-hogging ad blocker that targets only specific parts of the DOM and JS - to stop CPU-hogging ads...

First time I heard this kind of argumentation :) and Guy 2 has damn right.
By the way Guy 2 is programmer who started his career in 70's.



On 10/05/2010 17:34, Chris Hecker wrote:

Adobe would be foolish to not have a skunkworks project to have the Flash authoring environment output "html5" just in case.  Of course, Adobe is foolish, so hey.

Chris



John A. De Goes wrote:
Supposedly Apple may be working on a standards-compliant "Flash killer" authoring tool.

Until then, HTML5 cannot be a Flash killer because there is no high-level creative authoring tool.
But technically, JavaScript performance is slowly surpassing Flash and the standards are moving towards full 2D/3D hardware acceleration for Canvas 2D and OpenGL (which, given Adobe's pace, is not something you'll see in Flash anytime soon).

Regards,

John
On Apr 29, 2010, at 3:58 PM, Martijn Loots wrote:

Hi all.

I did not discover a method yet to create compiled HTML5
canvas scripts, so it seems not a real contender as a full
fledged Flash replacement.

Are there any thoughts here w.r.t. HTML5 and haXe..?

Grtz,
-- 
-Martijn    @..@    ( Martijn Loots       -  Hengelo  [NL] )
-          (`--')   ( martijn<@>cosix.comwww.cosix.com )
-         ( >__< )  ----------------------------------------
-         ^^^  ^^^  (   Netwerken, Security, Open Source   )

-- 
haXe - an open source web programming language
http://haxe.org





--

haXe - an open source web programming language
http://haxe.org



--
Băluță Cristian
http://ralcr.com
http://imagin.ro

--
haXe - an open source web programming language
http://haxe.org



--
DASNOIS Benjamin
http://www.benjamindasnois.com

--
haXe - an open source web programming language
http://haxe.org
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Re: Any thoughts on HTML5 vs Flash ?

Tarwin Stroh-Spijer
Daniel: Love the Guy1/Guy2 conversation. Very pertinent.

Chris: I spoke to some Adobe/Flash guys a week ago at the CS5 roadshow and they said that Adobe was working on Canvas output from Flash (currently demos are only things like creation of graphs).

I also agree that if you're going to create the same thing in HTML5 versus Flash you're likely to have it take more power with HTML5. One thing that currently stops this from happening is that because (D)HTML5 is mostly hand-coded your not going to generally have as complex items, except with a few crazy experiments that are created.

I've created Flash in the past (Scarygirl) that does stop itself when not being the active area, which works great. I could see this would not work for advertisements though as they are generally not active at all. I guess this is one reason that apples iAd idea is quite good as you're only showing a full "multimedia" advertisement (and hence only sucking power) when the user activates it. I think this is more an issue of advertisers and sites taking a responsibility for how the "power use" of advertisements as well as the KBs and size. When your creating a banner advertisement you'll always get very strict guidelines such as "must be 300x300, have X code in it, and be under 30KB)" so it's not unreasonable that there should be some calorific restriction too.

I recently finished a site (howsyoursugar.com.au) which currently has some very CPU eating animations in it. I looked at disabling the site when it's not "active" but realised that a lot of people will look at videos in the site while doing other things and would probably be quite annoyed if the site "turned itself off" whenever it lost focus.

Regards,



Tarwin Stroh-Spijer
_______________________

Touch My Pixel
http://www.touchmypixel.com/
phone: +61 3 8060 5321
_______________________


On Tue, May 11, 2010 at 5:08 AM, Benjamin Dasnois <[hidden email]> wrote:
Well still that doesn't make any sense on Deezer since it should play in the background... (I usually listen to music in the background, I'm not staying focused on my player...). This is just a commercial move (to get you to look at ads) on Deezer IMHO.

On Mon, May 10, 2010 at 7:47 PM, Baluta Cristian <[hidden email]> wrote:
I like the idea of stopping the flash when you don't interact with it, i'll steal it. I saw this on deezer.com, after a while everything becomes black and the sound is faded out and you have a button to get it back.


On Mon, May 10, 2010 at 7:59 PM, Daniel Wasilewski <[hidden email]> wrote:
Yea, seems to me that there is no way to escape this war :)

take a look here
http://www.readwriteweb.com/archives/does_html5_really_beat_flash_surprising_results_of_new_tests.php
Or probably most of you already know this.

Clearly Apple slowing down flash performance on their platform.
And most of this discussions Flash vs HTML missing one point.
Flash is not about video only.

Couple of days ago some experienced developers had conversation about this:
I will copy and paste very crucial moment from this conversation.
maemo.org forum regarding to Flash on mobile devices especially n900 in this case.

Guy 1
I think if any one of you would put a watt-meter on your computer when looking at flash enabled pages it would scare you.
And GPU acceleration does not help the watt usage.
Flash can be good for some things. But developers should make sure to have a timeout - so after x min of inactivity the animation stops or webbrowser window out of focus - then all flash
On my notebook (QX9300 based quad core) accidentally leaving the browser on a flash enabled pages decreases battery time by anywhere from 30-60% in Google Chrome and IE.
So what will that do to your true multitasking N900 handset?
On my 6 core i980 - wattage goes from 120watt to 190 watt when browser is on a page with flash adverts only - and that is with GPU acceleration.
So flash is not green for anyone else than Adobe....
I agree that flash is kind of unavoidable - but please developers - think about your consumers and make your apps easy as possible on the consumers power consumption.
So im in NO hurry to get better flash or even have flash on a mobile device like N900 that already suffers from bad battery life.
should stop.
 
Guy 2

Originally Posted by Guy 1
I think if any one of you would put a watt-meter on your computer when looking at flash enabled pages it would scare you.
If you were to put a watt-meter on a HTML/JS page that does the same that a Flash page does (of course, HTML/JS combo, even in the full-HTML5 draft support flavor which doesn't even exist yet, cannot actually do many of the things Flash does routinely) you would be not scared, but terrified! No JS VM comes even close at instructions/watt performance of AVM2. Flash, when used properly, is far more efficient than any HTML/JS implementation out there.

Originally Posted by Guy 1
And GPU acceleration does not help the watt usage.
It does, and in a huge way at that. CPUs (at least in CISC flavor) are jack of all trades but master of none, GPUs can do much less than your average CPU can, but what they do, they do far more efficiently. One of those things is complex number crunching which is really important for things like video decoding, encryption and, of course, 3D rendering and composition (well, anything that has to manipulate a large number of pixels). If you leave the decoding to GPU, you would waste far less watts per video frame than if CPU would do that. Even vector gfx processing can benefit from GPU acceleration as it also boils down to complex math.

Originally Posted by Guy 1
Flash can be good for some things. But developers should make sure to have a timeout - so after x min of inactivity the animation stops or webbrowser window out of focus - then all flash should stop.
So, you are blaming the technology for the faults of developers using that technology. You can build a processor hog in pretty much any executable language, that doesn't say anything about the platform/language, but says a lot about the developer. If Flash was to disappear/become replaced by HTML5/JS combo, where do you think those bad developers would go? That's right - they'll switch to even more inefficient technology and make you a living hell of web experience - now you can at least disable the plugin and you can easily block those obtrusive adds, just wait for the day where you would need to build a CPU-hogging ad blocker that targets only specific parts of the DOM and JS - to stop CPU-hogging ads...

First time I heard this kind of argumentation :) and Guy 2 has damn right.
By the way Guy 2 is programmer who started his career in 70's.



On 10/05/2010 17:34, Chris Hecker wrote:

Adobe would be foolish to not have a skunkworks project to have the Flash authoring environment output "html5" just in case.  Of course, Adobe is foolish, so hey.

Chris



John A. De Goes wrote:
Supposedly Apple may be working on a standards-compliant "Flash killer" authoring tool.

Until then, HTML5 cannot be a Flash killer because there is no high-level creative authoring tool.
But technically, JavaScript performance is slowly surpassing Flash and the standards are moving towards full 2D/3D hardware acceleration for Canvas 2D and OpenGL (which, given Adobe's pace, is not something you'll see in Flash anytime soon).

Regards,

John
On Apr 29, 2010, at 3:58 PM, Martijn Loots wrote:

Hi all.

I did not discover a method yet to create compiled HTML5
canvas scripts, so it seems not a real contender as a full
fledged Flash replacement.

Are there any thoughts here w.r.t. HTML5 and haXe..?

Grtz,
-- 
-Martijn    @..@    ( Martijn Loots       -  Hengelo  [NL] )
-          (`--')   ( martijn<@>cosix.comwww.cosix.com )
-         ( >__< )  ----------------------------------------
-         ^^^  ^^^  (   Netwerken, Security, Open Source   )

-- 
haXe - an open source web programming language
http://haxe.org





--

haXe - an open source web programming language
http://haxe.org



--
Băluță Cristian
http://ralcr.com
http://imagin.ro

--

haXe - an open source web programming language
http://haxe.org



--
DASNOIS Benjamin
http://www.benjamindasnois.com

--
haXe - an open source web programming language
http://haxe.org


--
haXe - an open source web programming language
http://haxe.org
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Any thoughts on HTML5 vs Flash ?

Tarwin Stroh-Spijer
[Sorry for the double post]

The reason that Flash runs slowly (mostly) on Macs is that the browser architecture is different than on PCs and slows things down a lot. Adobe is promising that there will be a 10.1 release of the player for Safari 4 (which has a new plugin option) that runs as fast, if not paster in certain circumstances, than on PC.

This guy's one of the Flash player engineers I think : http://blog.kaourantin.net/?p=81

Tarwin Stroh-Spijer
_______________________

Touch My Pixel
http://www.touchmypixel.com/
phone: +61 3 8060 5321
_______________________


On Tue, May 11, 2010 at 11:39 AM, Tarwin Stroh-Spijer <[hidden email]> wrote:
Daniel: Love the Guy1/Guy2 conversation. Very pertinent.

Chris: I spoke to some Adobe/Flash guys a week ago at the CS5 roadshow and they said that Adobe was working on Canvas output from Flash (currently demos are only things like creation of graphs).

I also agree that if you're going to create the same thing in HTML5 versus Flash you're likely to have it take more power with HTML5. One thing that currently stops this from happening is that because (D)HTML5 is mostly hand-coded your not going to generally have as complex items, except with a few crazy experiments that are created.

I've created Flash in the past (Scarygirl) that does stop itself when not being the active area, which works great. I could see this would not work for advertisements though as they are generally not active at all. I guess this is one reason that apples iAd idea is quite good as you're only showing a full "multimedia" advertisement (and hence only sucking power) when the user activates it. I think this is more an issue of advertisers and sites taking a responsibility for how the "power use" of advertisements as well as the KBs and size. When your creating a banner advertisement you'll always get very strict guidelines such as "must be 300x300, have X code in it, and be under 30KB)" so it's not unreasonable that there should be some calorific restriction too.

I recently finished a site (howsyoursugar.com.au) which currently has some very CPU eating animations in it. I looked at disabling the site when it's not "active" but realised that a lot of people will look at videos in the site while doing other things and would probably be quite annoyed if the site "turned itself off" whenever it lost focus.

Regards,



Tarwin Stroh-Spijer
_______________________

Touch My Pixel
http://www.touchmypixel.com/
phone: +61 3 8060 5321
_______________________


On Tue, May 11, 2010 at 5:08 AM, Benjamin Dasnois <[hidden email]> wrote:
Well still that doesn't make any sense on Deezer since it should play in the background... (I usually listen to music in the background, I'm not staying focused on my player...). This is just a commercial move (to get you to look at ads) on Deezer IMHO.

On Mon, May 10, 2010 at 7:47 PM, Baluta Cristian <[hidden email]> wrote:
I like the idea of stopping the flash when you don't interact with it, i'll steal it. I saw this on deezer.com, after a while everything becomes black and the sound is faded out and you have a button to get it back.


On Mon, May 10, 2010 at 7:59 PM, Daniel Wasilewski <[hidden email]> wrote:
Yea, seems to me that there is no way to escape this war :)

take a look here
http://www.readwriteweb.com/archives/does_html5_really_beat_flash_surprising_results_of_new_tests.php
Or probably most of you already know this.

Clearly Apple slowing down flash performance on their platform.
And most of this discussions Flash vs HTML missing one point.
Flash is not about video only.

Couple of days ago some experienced developers had conversation about this:
I will copy and paste very crucial moment from this conversation.
maemo.org forum regarding to Flash on mobile devices especially n900 in this case.

Guy 1
I think if any one of you would put a watt-meter on your computer when looking at flash enabled pages it would scare you.
And GPU acceleration does not help the watt usage.
Flash can be good for some things. But developers should make sure to have a timeout - so after x min of inactivity the animation stops or webbrowser window out of focus - then all flash
On my notebook (QX9300 based quad core) accidentally leaving the browser on a flash enabled pages decreases battery time by anywhere from 30-60% in Google Chrome and IE.
So what will that do to your true multitasking N900 handset?
On my 6 core i980 - wattage goes from 120watt to 190 watt when browser is on a page with flash adverts only - and that is with GPU acceleration.
So flash is not green for anyone else than Adobe....
I agree that flash is kind of unavoidable - but please developers - think about your consumers and make your apps easy as possible on the consumers power consumption.
So im in NO hurry to get better flash or even have flash on a mobile device like N900 that already suffers from bad battery life.
should stop.
 
Guy 2

Originally Posted by Guy 1
I think if any one of you would put a watt-meter on your computer when looking at flash enabled pages it would scare you.
If you were to put a watt-meter on a HTML/JS page that does the same that a Flash page does (of course, HTML/JS combo, even in the full-HTML5 draft support flavor which doesn't even exist yet, cannot actually do many of the things Flash does routinely) you would be not scared, but terrified! No JS VM comes even close at instructions/watt performance of AVM2. Flash, when used properly, is far more efficient than any HTML/JS implementation out there.

Originally Posted by Guy 1
And GPU acceleration does not help the watt usage.
It does, and in a huge way at that. CPUs (at least in CISC flavor) are jack of all trades but master of none, GPUs can do much less than your average CPU can, but what they do, they do far more efficiently. One of those things is complex number crunching which is really important for things like video decoding, encryption and, of course, 3D rendering and composition (well, anything that has to manipulate a large number of pixels). If you leave the decoding to GPU, you would waste far less watts per video frame than if CPU would do that. Even vector gfx processing can benefit from GPU acceleration as it also boils down to complex math.

Originally Posted by Guy 1
Flash can be good for some things. But developers should make sure to have a timeout - so after x min of inactivity the animation stops or webbrowser window out of focus - then all flash should stop.
So, you are blaming the technology for the faults of developers using that technology. You can build a processor hog in pretty much any executable language, that doesn't say anything about the platform/language, but says a lot about the developer. If Flash was to disappear/become replaced by HTML5/JS combo, where do you think those bad developers would go? That's right - they'll switch to even more inefficient technology and make you a living hell of web experience - now you can at least disable the plugin and you can easily block those obtrusive adds, just wait for the day where you would need to build a CPU-hogging ad blocker that targets only specific parts of the DOM and JS - to stop CPU-hogging ads...

First time I heard this kind of argumentation :) and Guy 2 has damn right.
By the way Guy 2 is programmer who started his career in 70's.



On 10/05/2010 17:34, Chris Hecker wrote:

Adobe would be foolish to not have a skunkworks project to have the Flash authoring environment output "html5" just in case.  Of course, Adobe is foolish, so hey.

Chris



John A. De Goes wrote:
Supposedly Apple may be working on a standards-compliant "Flash killer" authoring tool.

Until then, HTML5 cannot be a Flash killer because there is no high-level creative authoring tool.
But technically, JavaScript performance is slowly surpassing Flash and the standards are moving towards full 2D/3D hardware acceleration for Canvas 2D and OpenGL (which, given Adobe's pace, is not something you'll see in Flash anytime soon).

Regards,

John
On Apr 29, 2010, at 3:58 PM, Martijn Loots wrote:

Hi all.

I did not discover a method yet to create compiled HTML5
canvas scripts, so it seems not a real contender as a full
fledged Flash replacement.

Are there any thoughts here w.r.t. HTML5 and haXe..?

Grtz,
-- 
-Martijn    @..@    ( Martijn Loots       -  Hengelo  [NL] )
-          (`--')   ( martijn<@>cosix.comwww.cosix.com )
-         ( >__< )  ----------------------------------------
-         ^^^  ^^^  (   Netwerken, Security, Open Source   )

-- 
haXe - an open source web programming language
http://haxe.org





--

haXe - an open source web programming language
http://haxe.org



--
Băluță Cristian
http://ralcr.com
http://imagin.ro

--

haXe - an open source web programming language
http://haxe.org



--
DASNOIS Benjamin
http://www.benjamindasnois.com

--

haXe - an open source web programming language
http://haxe.org



--
haXe - an open source web programming language
http://haxe.org